"Prove it!"

[Lauren]

"So you say you're a vampire, Prove it!"

"Show me Proof that spirits exist!"

"You cannot prove {insert claim} because it's not true!"

How many times have you found people who simply cannot accept anything that isn't proven without a doubt? How often have YOU found it hard to believe something without imperical data backing it up?

How many times have you seen someone who may even want to believe, but simply cannot or will not without hard-proven facts?

This world we live in, this universe, is a complex, mysterious thing. Many things cannot be explained, and cannot be proven. This fact does not negate the existance of the unexplained or misunderstood, or unproven. Many things in life, simply come down to... do you believe?

I believe in many things that I cannot explain but I believe them simply because I experienced them. Take the mind for example. I am bipolar and many people say mental illness doesn't exist. There is no medical testing that can be done to show unequivocably that I have bipolar disorder. Still, it is accepted that I do indeed have this disorder. Why? Because a bunch of men watched the behaviors and travails of a group of people, over a long stretch of time and noticed the same things happening to unrelated, people with nothing else in common and no previous contact with each other and decided that if you have A, B, C and D traits, you are bipolar. Even with the contradictions and inconsistancies, such as medications working for some with bipolar and not others, this is still believed. Still, the proof is circumstancial and it's "true" only because a certain bunch of people made a statement based on experience and everyone else believed it.

I do not purport that we should just believe everything anyone says, but I would not count out something that sounds odd, simply because there is no unarguable documented "proof". Throughout history, our unarguable proofs have been found to be incorrect and such proof has been refuted and found to be complete fallicy.

I believe it makes a life very empty to only believe in the things in this world that have undeniable "proof". I also find that it denies much of our own abilities and growth and enjoyment.

What unexplainable things have happened to you and which of them do you block out and deny just because you have no explanation for them?

Many things are spiritual, and the spiritual realm remains hard-pressed to prove. Many things are mental and remain hard-pressed to prove... and many things in the physical are hard to prove also.

I think many of us have looked at all we have learned, all mankind has been able to decipher and figure out and we've become so cocky and arrogant that we believe if we cannot prove it by now, it just doesn't exist. I believe some are afraid to believe because being "fooled" can be hazardous, I also believe closing our minds to the unexplained can deprive us of great new knowledge.

EVERYTHING that has been proven, at one time, was believed to be hogwash. EVERY person, scientist, doctor, researcher, spiritualist who dared to proclaim these things to be true, were ridiculed and called crazy, until they proved it. What wonders are we losing by denying what we do not understand? What harm do we do ourselves, by opening ourselves to the possibility that there is something out there that we may not understand?

I will tell you something that happened to me. Will you believe what I believe? Maybe not. Will it change what I believe... probably not. Will your disbelief or belief harm either of us, or change truth from fiction? Definitely not. Here's my story.

I was raised in a fundamental christain environment. I was at revival and a little boy in a wheel chair was brought up on stage. Now, I was one of the musicians and was only about 5 ft away from the child and when I say his feet were deformed, I do not mean they were bent in a way any human could do intentionally. His feet looked like a piece of knarled dogwood. They prayed over that young man, and as I sat unexpecting and in truth a bit unmoved and bored, his feet straightened in front of my eyes. He walked for, what was said, the first time in his life, being held up as an infant would just learning to walk. Do I believe that child experienced a miracle? I sure as hell do. Can you give me a number of other reasons I could have thought I saw what I saw? Yes sir'ee. However, my belief in this miracle did nothing but one thing... it made me believe. It did not make me go nuts and sell all my belongings and give it to the church... I did not give all my "riches to the poor". It made me believe in something stronger than myself... more powerful than myself. It made me search within myself for other things I cannot explain and do not understand.

I have no idea if "God" healed that boy, if he used the power of his own mind, if he was never cripled and it was all a cleaver manipulation, but I do know one thing... I face things a whole new way now. I believe in more than what my limited mind can comprehend, and while I believe, I am not carried away into fantasy and hysteria, or foolishness.

The bottom line is that there are things NONE of us can explain. The proof comes down, in these instances, on the side of "educated belief".

I believe in vampires... I believe in Angels, I believe in Spirits and I believe in God (by many names) What do you believe in spite of what you can or cannot prove??

Lauren

[Crystalforger]

I believe that if more people would remove the log from their own eyes, they would see much more clearly to remove the spec from their neighbors'.

Excellent article.

[darklin]

I believe in myself, in my own abilities and the things i have experienced. As you have said I myself have had many experiences that most would deem irrational and untrue...
I used to try and convince people but I gave up on trying so hard a long time ago.
I have a lot of friends that aren’t inclined to open up to the universal goings on but I have cracked the surface of a few.
My strong belief in the after life and spirit has given the people around me a lot of comfort at times when it mattered the most.
I cant explain the things that happen around me or the experiences I have had but the one thing I can say is this ‘I believe in myself'.
I can sleep at night knowing that I’m watched over by loved one who have passed.
I cannot prove that there’s an afterlife I just know it in my heart that when we die it’s not the end.
I’ve had my faith threatened and I have questioned myself many, many times but its still there and I cannot deny that this is who I am and these are the things that I believe in.
I do get frustrated at other peoples beliefs and wish they could understand the satisfaction and comfort I am given with my own but everyone’s entitled to there own and I don’t question that.
I don’t fear death as many do not due to my beliefs. The only thing I fear is the sorrow that we leave behind.
I could go on forever about the many things that I believe in but this was the main one that I have been mostly questioned about in my life..
Excellent piece of writing hunnie

[Crystalforger]

I don’t fear death as many do not due to my beliefs.

Many might claim not to fear death, and it is not my place to say wether what they say is true or not. I do not know. Please understand, Darklin. It's not that I doubt you, or that I don't think you know what you're talking about. In fact, I rather hope that you do not.

Please understand. I know that I do not fear death, because I stared it down one warm summer night. As I was leaving work, I robber came and demanded my money. His 9mm gun was held close enough to my head that I could feel the cool air running the length of the short barrel. As my work associate left me ( exactly what I wanted her to do ) I realized that my life depended solely on the whim of this antagonist.

I walked away. My hands were not shaking as I handed him the $16 I had in may wallet. My voice was not wavering as I told them several times that I had "no money". So now I know for certain that I do not fear death.

Back to the original thread; Although I believe in the unproveable, I am still cynical. I look for proofs in my own life everyday. When I do not find them, it doesn't mean that they do not exist, simply that I do not see them. Recently some things have started happening that are unexplainable, and not easily duplicateable. I believe, but not blindly.

[Vicereine]

Wonderful writing as always Lauren....

For my part, I believe that we are constantly surprised in both good and bad ways if we leave ourselves open to experience.

I believe that even things deemed a negative experience, have a positive come out of it in some way. Be it wisdom or personal evolution or even just understanding.

I believe in vampires (being one it helps to believe in myself ;) ). I believe in angels and deamons. I believe we all have a little of each in us as well.

I believe in the sanctity of mind, the triumph of human spirit and the diversity and uniqueness of every personality I meet.

I believe we are capable of rising above our limitations and being better, wiser and more compassionate.

I believe in truth, such as it is. I believe ultimately the truth is revealed, this can be good and bad.

I believe that truth is not always best (yes im contradictory!) that truth can harm as well as heal, and should be treated wearily at times.

Mostly I believe in belief.... we all need to believe something sometimes, just to get through the day.

I believe that people show their truest selves in anger, there unhindered honest thoughts. They reveal themselves.

And finally I believe that humanity shall never understand its greatest blessings or acknowledge its worst faults. But damn me, Im gonna die trying to fathom it out :)

[RevDevon]

As Vicerine stated "Mostly I believe in belief.... we all need to believe something sometimes, just to get through the day. " ..is the only true belief to be concerned with ... as long as we are comfortable with what we believe in is all that matters..

and crystal I can Identify with your experience as not only have I been held gun point several times I have also been shot at close range (5 ft.) with a 12 ga. shotgun

[darklin]

I understand what your saying crystal and i think you have misunderstood what i was trying to say....I do not fear death as in i do not fear what lies ahead of me once i do pass onto the next stage of my existence. Of coarse i fear death if it is going to be brought about through violence or accident i don’t know anyone who does not fear that.
Darklin..

[Crystalforger]

You do now.

Like you, I am settled about what comes after, and I live today with no regret. I believe it will be new and different. I believe we only understand it in part now, but then we will know as we are known.

Rev & I have directly faced the possibility that all we have ever said or done is all we ever will say or do here. This causes a person to re-evaluate their lives with a new standard. I would hope I am the better for it.

I agree also with Vicereine. and that is why I hold my anger very close. One often finds when I am truely angry, I am very quiet. My wife hates that.

Sorry if I seem to be dominating this thread. It is a good topic.

[Vicereine]

Funny you should say that Crystal I do the same thing.. I try very very hard to not lose my temper, and try to discuss when there is an issue. Which my husband HATES, as he likes a good arguement to clear the air. But i find the things said in an arguement hurtful, to the point that i feel physical pain in reaction to the words said.

If you are just telling someone off, or what you think then my all means give into anger honesty, but in my opinion, if its someone you care about and you are trying to resolve something, telling them exactly what you think is the wrong way to go.

[Camazotz]

To be honest, I believe in most things more than myself. Now that sounds like a horribly crippling statement, but I don't think it has to be. It just means that whilst I may not have a lot of faith in the direction 'mankind' is going, I have sooo much faith in those people around me- I see such beauty in them, so many talents that they just need one person to have faith in to allow them to start to shine. (I would rather be that person than anything else)

I believe in god, by whatever name one chooses to use. I believe in truth, loyalty, honesty and mercy.. all of which are constantly being disproven by people's actions, but I still have faith that there are enough people who want them to prevail.

I guess I can sum all the above up by saying the thing I most believe in is love..in all its forms.

[stainless]

Belief, interesting concept isn't it?

Belief has caused wars, but healed wounds,
Belief has destroyed civilisations, but been the cement for many others,

Belief is purely cultural in my opinion, I really don't understand why people need something to cling to or believe in, even if it's just yourself? Why in modern times when anyone with half a mind can learn about the world and look towards and work for the future with hope do people need belief?

I am of course not just refering to religious beliefs as that would be narrowing the idea and would be slightly out of context.

Why do people need to face death to know they fear it or not, can a human not perceive death and therefore deal with it?

Can a human not rely on awareness rather than belief? What IS it anyway? Whats to believe when surrounded by things you can KNOW.

I'm truly confused by the concept, it seems awfully alien to me.

[Camazotz]

I think hope and belief are instrinsically linked for a lot of people hun

[darklin]

Hope and belief are the strongest foundations in my life. Without those i wouldn’t have gotten this far in my life.
I need to have something to believe in, something to raise my hopes for and dream of easier times ahead.
Pain can be distinguished by hope and in the belief system of something greater than ourselves.
I believe that we all endure pain for a reason and that in the end we will be able to sit back and be able to understand that reason.
Everything takes time and courage to stay strong and see things through that we don’t yet understand....

[stainless]

I see everyone's points, and I accept people's beliefs with respect. I know its human to have these emotional responses, because I sincerely think that belief and hope etc are purely emotional responses, but what do they really serve? People hold so dilligently to beliefs and hope, is it not more sensible tho to grasp for the tangible? Surely reaching for something that has no intrinsic value is in the end a futile and despirate gesture?

Some may be thinking now that I must have a sad life if I hold no hope or belief in my heart, that I may be in some way lacking in a basic human attribute that will get me through life? I would respond respectfully by saying maybe you should ponder the fact that some can perceive the world and all things in a bit differently because their thoughts are not clouded or jaded by things imaginary? Not that I don't give all due respect to others beliefs, I just feel that as a life on this planet we need not stare vacantly off into things we cannot and probably will not attain but use our dreams and imagination for a better end?! We can all sit back and hope, or believe that it's all part of some plan, that we suffer for good cause, my cause however is the betterment of all things I come in contact with, myself included. If I can spread a little of what I have come to see then maybe that will help us all in the end.

Our beliefs and emotions are what mainly separates us from the world, animals and such, and look what that distance has wrought, pollution, inhumanity amongst ourselves, cruelty and bigotry. I don't see how this is a good thing. If we ever should be hoping and believing in something, should not that belief be that we can improve ourselves to the pint that we can return more to our planet and then with that knowledge explore the rest of the universe in peace?

[Alyushia]

I understand what you are saying Stainless, however what about the flip side?
What about the beauty man creates? Without belief and hope what reason is there to create the arts? Mankind is capable of horrendous things, but also capable of such beauty. Why bother if there is no hope or belief?

[Lauren]

I believe hope and belief exist even in those who say otherwise, if only to a lesser degree. I do believe there are those who reach for the tangible and operate more on logic and the facts we have here and now, and I believe those people are valuable and needed. But even those must have a degree of hope and a modicum of belief. It's logical that to reach for something, tangible or not, would mean whatever is being reached for is not in our possession at the moment... therefore, there is hope, by reaching, that it can be useful and belief that it can be obtained.

The dreamers and hopeful thinkers are also needed. All throughout history there have been those things that did not exist, but someone hoped, and believed it existed or could exist. Without those who can hope for better things, those who logically act, would have little to act on or work toward.

I do not think we need to, or even should try, to change the dreamers or the logical thinkers. Instead, I think they're both useful and needed and we could acheive more by combining both types of people.

I do believe, however, that those who hope, need to balance that hope with realistic goals and possibilities, while those with logical minds try to be open to the possibility that some of the most unbelievable or irrational ideas, could have some validity.

As for what benefit hope and belief bring... it brings motivation to learn what we do not, at this time, know. It brings vision, and ideas. Logic, tempers this hope and idealism with reality, and focus.

[Rikkar]

Firstly, to just plain sound off. To those who say "prove it" regarding me being a vampire I have a simple reply: you do not have to believe what I am or what I am not. Nor does your belief or disbelief affect my existence in any way whatsoever.

Ok, now that that is off of my chest.

Belief is a result of personal knowledge. We cannot believe what has not been shown, within reasonable doubt, to be true... to ourselves.

This is where the problems arise. Each person has his or her own experiences and interprets the world through his or her own "glasses". I, personally, have a conundrum to face.

I am a terminally, irritatingly logical man. I am, on one side, the "if I do not see/touch/feel/smell/taste it it does not exist" sort of guy. However, I believe I possess a semi developed sixth sense. I believe in spirits because I sense and sometimes them. I believe in ghosts, because I sense and sometimes see them. Sometimes I can communicate with both. I believe in the psychic abilities because I have some limited abilities myself and I know those with extensive ones.

I force my mind to remain open to things in which I do not believe. I force my mind to not close and listen to what others have to say and I seek out information that contradicts my current beliefs, adjusting them as I determine that this input is valid. This is why I usually say "I do not believe such and so, but it could be so. My disbelief does not invalidate it."

Herein lies the proverbial rub. Most people shut their minds to new information. They form their beliefs and by God that is THAT.

A pond that is stagnant slowly dies. A pond that is fed fresh water thrives. A mind that is closed to new information and eyes that are shut to new sights likewise stagnate. One must learn to continue to evolve, even to live.

This is the way of Nature itself.

I like what stainless had to say: "Belief is purely cultural in my opinion". Now, I do not believe it is purely cultural, but cultural impact cannot and should not be denied. Culture is one of the filters through which we pass what we shall believe or not. How we were raised, which does include culture, is another filter through which we believe shall be passed.

What we need to do is work past these filters and make our own judgement based upon our own experiences. Yes, take culture, upbringing and the like into account but do not let it stop there.

Lauren said: "The dreamers and hopeful thinkers are also needed."

Everyone is needed. The dreamers, the hopeful thinkers, the analyzers, the optimists, the pessimists, the realists, whatever those are. If you have a community or group of only one of these, you have a bunch of people agreeing with each other. I listed diverse types of thinkers. Without the diversity, growth is not to occur.

Think upon an oyster (or was it a clam?)... without the grain of sand to irritate it, a pearl is not formed.

[stainless]

What about the beauty man creates? Without belief and hope what reason is there to create the arts? Mankind is capable of horrendous things, but also capable of such beauty. Why bother if there is no hope or belief?

Because many people can create beauty and understand the beauty of the world and what we create in it without having belief in it. Whats to hope for anyway? hope other's will like it? fuckit! arts all about expression and beauty, s'got fuck all to do with belief and hope! These two increasingly valueless words still have a great emotional content for most people and I think if people knew exactly what they really were... They're concepts, I have enough concepts that are real enough in my life without clinging to useless ideals that serve no purpose other than to distract humanity from its hardships and the badness around us.

Hope for the future so the now or the past is less horrible, how about get your brain working and look forward to the future and change your present, we have brains, sentience, use em eh?

Belief in things greater etc, more pointless, there are greater things out there, but we can see them, sense them, what with the believing it's there? these energies have been around a damned sight longer that us and guaranteed they don't give a flying fuck if we believe in them. lol


Not having a go guys, I just NEED to know why humanity still needs hope and belief anymore, We have outgrown them, like most religions, we DO NOT need them anymore.

Shit the only thing I really want is a tail, or wings, HOW COOL!!!

[Lauren]

Stainless, what is your definition of "hope" or "belief"? I'm asking because you said we should "look forward" to the future. The definition of "hope" is to "look forward" to something with the expectation it can or will happen."

The expectation of it happening, can be contingent on us doing something to bring it about, or not.

You were saying we do not need hope or belief so I'm trying to understand where you're coming from on the definitions of hope and belief.

[Vicereine]

I'm sure Stainless will correct me if Im wrong Lauren, but I think that what he may have meant is that Hope for Hope's sake is beyond pointless.

For example, a person stands aware of a coming natural disaster but does not evacuate becuase they believe their God will spare them or hope that they shall.

For my part, in response to Stainless, I have given this some thought. I think its possible to be a dreamer?/realist most of the time.

For example, I hope that my children shall grow to be decent human beings, but i do not sit back on my laurels in the blind 'hope' that it shall happen, or the 'belief' that i desearve it to be so. I get of by butt and I work with them, hard. I encourage and invest in them. I still hope they shall be decent (and in my spectrum, decent is a very wide definition), but I work for it also.

The same as I hope to have a happy retirement and to enjoy life more as I get older. But i work for it.

With me its an amalgamation of drive, desire and ambition for anything. It doesnt stop me hoping for things, nor does it stop me believing inthings such as the more charitable side of human nature, but I'm realistic where I expect it. I mean, I wouldnt appeal to the better nature of an armed robber in the belief that he had some good in him. ;)

Probably doesnt make much sense but it seemed to to me at the time.

[stainless]

Thats pretty much it, blind belief or faith even, hope in something, I'm more physical, get your hands dirty and sort itout yourself kinda guy.

Belief for me is the mental condition of placing trust or confidence in another person... Belief as in part of a person's convictions is what I don't particularly get, why must a person have something to believe in? Every universal truth is waiting right outside, why believe in something useless when absolute clarity is available just a step outside your door, as it were. The only belief I really have i suppose is meliorism... Which I do firmly and steadfastly believe in, but I don't NEED to...

I think when a person hopes for a thing, or a mental state it's just a form of laziness and/ or procrastination, get up and make what you want happen, don't sit around hoping or wishing it will...

With all our human indulgences and vices I think we allow ourselves to become complacent, dwelling on the negative because its easier that fighting for the positive. The safety nets people use, such as belief and hope are meerly tools to help our poor misunderstood and undervalued selves feel better about our situations rather than dealing with them and moving on.

I've lost many friends through them just sitting around hoping for their situations to improve, dole drop outs most of them, hoping for the future, how about get off your lazy bastard arses and get a job? improve yourselves! don't wait for things to improve themselves because they sure as shit won't. The only things that run this world are chaos and chance, flukes of nature and random events, it's unpredictable out there, and DAMN is that awesome! But you cannot just sit around hoping in a chaotic world, you need to actively grab hold of your life and mold it into what you want.

</waffle>

[Lauren]

Ahhh, so it is the difference between "hope" and "wish" that you are seeing.

"hope" to me is an active word, while wishing is inactive. I believe one must believe it CAN be done, even if it takes work and getting out there and doing it. That is all hope is, the belief it can be done. But I can tell you I would not strive for that which I do not believe can happen or be done and it is that hope that it can be done which gives me the motivation to get dirty and try to make it happen.

[stainless]

It's not quite that simple i think, but yeah, why not, hehe.

This is where the english language even with all its nuances and feubles lets us down a little, or maybe it's my vocabulary failing me, sometimes I strive for description but the concept in my mind seems elusive.

hmmm, I should learn more latin?

[Lauren]

or invest in a dictionary! *lol*. Not being smartassed, but my definitions of hope, wish, and belief are the dictionary definition not so I could refute you, but so I could see that I was, indeed, using the right words for what I was trying to say.

I'm not a word person either so I often have to go to the dictionary to make sure I'm using the right words for what I want to convey.

Even so, ignoring the definition, I have a question...

If you were going to do something as you said and get in there and get dirty and get it done... would you have the motivation to do it, or even put in the effort if you did not think you could do what you were trying to do? If you thought something was impossible... would you still spend the effort to make it happen?

[RKCoon]

Faith? Me, i dont think so. I know what i feel, how i feel it, and how what i do -- weather i feed or not -- affects me. that, while not proven scientificly, is proof enough to me. I dont want to BE proven either -- it relates back to my repeated rants on the "XMen" scenario. I also know what i feel from others that i beleive/percieve to be "real" -- and i tend to trust myself more than most any others.i dont call it faith - i call it self esteem.

[stainless]

If i was trying to breathe in a vacuum or fly without assistance, possibly I wouldn't bother, but I don't really "believe" in the impossible, anything is possible really, it may take time etc. But yes I would try, but I wouldn't hope that I could do it, I would just know I could if i tried hard enough... I suppose..

Props for RKCoon, self asteem very important, if you can't trust yourself, how can you ever work for a better future for that self?! so yeah.

[Lauren]

anything is possible really, it may take time etc...
That, Sir, is hope. To believe anything that is not presently existent or currently in our grasp, is "hope". That is all I meant by the term "hope" at all.

[stainless]

not hope as I see, it, but i'm not going to quibble over definitions...

we see things different, but that just makes it more interesting eh?

[Lauren]

Wait a minute! I'm a woman and as such, it's my mission in life to argue with men! Get your butt back here :p

*hugs*

Seriously though, I'd like to hear more about what you think with or without the definitions. To me, it seems we're saying a lot of the same things but getting stuck on one word.

For example, I neither see hope as a virtuous thing, nor a bad thing. To me it's just a neutral thing that acts as a catalyst for motivation.

What is it for you, and what motivates you?

[Alyushia]

I find that many times people get stuck on semantics when trying to discuss an issue.
It is a wonder, really, that we can communicate at all with all of the subtle nuances words can have. Many words have so many slightly different definitions and mean different things to different people depending on the culture they were raised in..
Language is simply not as precise as we would like it to be, and often this can cause misunderstanding and hurt feelings.
It truly is a miracle sometimes that we understand each other at all.
One must be willing to push past this in order to have a true understanding of the other person's thoughts and intent.

[stainless]

Wait a minute! I'm a woman and as such, it's my mission in life to argue with men! Get your butt back here :p

*hugs*

Seriously though, I'd like to hear more about what you think with or without the definitions. To me, it seems we're saying a lot of the same things but getting stuck on one word.

For example, I neither see hope as a virtuous thing, nor a bad thing. To me it's just a neutral thing that acts as a catalyst for motivation.

What is it for you, and what motivates you?

A good swift kick up the arse usually!! well, I'm fairly self motivating. Not to be confused with self serving by the way, I'm all about spreading the love. *ahem*

What worries me is that I see people drifting thru life, hoping and praying they.... Win the lottery, get a job, DON'T get a job, get married, have kids, lose weight, lose their virginity! all that stuff is doable, just git yer butt moving and DO it!

I just hate to see people wasting their lives on hope and things.

[Vicereine]

agrees with Alyushia... it can even be geographical even on a local scale. For example, I live in England, a relatively small island compared to some of the continents you guys live on, and I can barely understand the nuances of written language of people who live further north than me.

Cross continent communications some subtlties are truely lost. No offence intended to those americans here, but i know alot who just dont get sarcasm. Something that I use a lot of.

Hey ho, the way of the world I guess

[ChadSang]

"What worries me is that I see people drifting thru life, hoping and praying they.... Win the lottery, get a job, DON'T get a job, get married, have kids, lose weight, lose their virginity! all that stuff is doable, just git yer butt moving and DO it!

I just hate to see people wasting their lives on hope and things."
Stainless

I like those words very much actually.

[gypsy mouse]

hope??? for a better day??
ya only got one day man!
live it.