For your viewing pleasure...

[Stefan]

I'm posting these as an FYI only; not intended to push an issue or cause controversy (or am I...muahhahahah...). Take 'em or leave 'em, some have asked about these in different threads so here they are...



The Old Ways
The Laws of the Society
Written down by Stefan and Malcaius [House Phoenix Resurectus]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. You shall not Divulge your nature .

2. All vampires are your Brethren; treat all with proper respect.

3. The Elders are the foundation of our society, heed their council and beware their wrath.

4. Respect the territory you visit, either of solitary or House occupation. Always contact the Elders of the territory and advise them of your movements; this is for your protection.

5. Conflict with other vampires should be kept to a minimum. Prior to a challenge always contact that vampire's Elders and your own before acting; this will keep peace amongst the houses.

6. Never reveal another vampire openly.

7. Move within this world as part of it, conceal your nature for the good of all.

8. Only the Elder can grant ingress to an Outsider (Donor, Mundane, Vampire or Elder). Failure to comply will result in immediate punishment.

9. Treat the mundane population with respect, we depend on them for nourishment - and they outnumber us.

10. Do not awaken or admit another to the lifestyle without careful research and consultation with the Elders and the House.

11. Treat the donor with as much care as your own life.

12. Do not kill your own kind without leave.

13. Wars between Houses/Clans is inevitable, such is our way to preserve the ideals of the society.

14. Renegade vampire/houses are subject to the review of the Council. No individual Elder or Elders can pronounce judgement on a house without becoming rogue themselves, and thus subject to the Council.

15. Should the Council deliver a verdict, it is observed as law amongst the society.

16. It is possible to co-exist in the same territory with another House/Clan provided that each respects the others claim.

17. An exiled vampire is not permitted to join with another House/Clan. Should another house/clan accept them, they set themselves at odds with the House which initiated the exile.

18. Should an Elder be overthrown by his own, the House may appoint from within with approval from the Council.

19. Fledgling houses are still subject to the Council, though they may appoint their Elders from within. They are directly responsible for any and all actions taken until the Council has contacted and approved of the Elder(s).


Well, this ought to be interesting...:maniac:

[MLE]

interesting indeed... I look forward to reading other responses..

[ChadSang]

Very good guys. We need more people to go by those requirements

[Camazotz]

I'm curious as to where these actually came from? Are the intended to be something that you came up with as being representative of 'old ways' or are they from an earlier source?

I will admit, I completely disagree with most of it... but shall be interested to see others' views.

Cama

[Savion]

Curious to the response to Cama's questions. There are many I think are reasonable and of good common sense, but some of them I cannot agree with. Of course, I do not, nor ever intend to be part of a house.

[theoutsider]

I also, (as an outsider ! ) wonder where exactly these rules came from.

And, to be honest, it sounds like the best way to set up a breeding ground for infighting, politics, backstabbing and more politics, and eventually disintigration of the community that follows these rules. That, of course, is only my opinion, but ever society that I've ever seen with restrictions on openness and with so much power invested in one class almost always self destructs.

[incubus]

Ok what the hell I will bite (no pun) and say my views on some of these and bare with me coffee an xanax not kicked in lol.

1. You shall not Divulge your nature . To who? To all? If that is the case then it is like saying, don't let anyone into our secret club, or even be ashamed of what you are, do not discuss it. Or worse yet to stifle others acceptance due to they have no clue what hell your about.

2. All vampires are your Brethren; treat all with proper respect. Sigh we should have been nicer to todd then lol.

3. The Elders are the foundation of our society, heed their council and beware their wrath. While in the old days this may have worked , this is just so not valid today people should question their elders (I have always believed that) take no one persons word as gospel.

4. Respect the territory you visit, either of solitary or House occupation. Always contact the Elders of the territory and advise them of your movements; this is for your protection. This I will just smirk at , sorry but wow.

7. Move within this world as part of it, conceal your nature for the good of all. I fail to see how concealment of ones self is good (when if the outline had been done better being open would have got understanding)

8. Only the Elder can grant ingress to an Outsider (Donor, Mundane, Vampire or Elder). Failure to comply will result in immediate punishment.

9. Treat the mundane population with respect, we depend on them for nourishment - and they outnumber us. Sounds sort of like, billy do not tease the cows , they will trample ya and we need to eat them latter. I mean why not , treat them with respect they are human as we are?

10. Do not awaken or admit another to the lifestyle without careful research and consultation with the Elders and the House. One I used to half agree with is do not awaken someone, not any more though although it has its ramifications it does more good in most cases to educate then to let them stumble around lost.

11. Treat the donor with as much care as your own life. Ok good one !! 1 point.

12. Do not kill your own kind without leave. Erm ? Should we kill any kind? Sounds gamish , sorry but true.

13. Wars between Houses/Clans is inevitable, such is our way to preserve the ideals of the society. Or the ideals of dictators. But that is splitting hairs , lol.

Ok is only ones I will touch upon, due mainly this is to do with houses, has no baring in the greater part of things due to not all like houses, nor agree with the set up.

[kyuuketsuki_kurai]

People were asking where these came from.
Unless I am mistaken, the guidelines were written for the House Phoenix Resurrectus.

I'm not a big fan of houses, and tend to stay away from them. That's my personal tastes, though.

[Lauren]

Please understand this is all foreign to me as I've never been in the community until recently. I am hoping most of this was written when these gentlemen were younger and things sounded much better in their heads than they did on paper.

Either way, please take some of what I say "tongue in cheek". I think it will be apparent where I'm serious and where I'm not.



1. You shall not Divulge your nature .
:look: Uh oh, I'm going to hell... why did not someone tell me this before I told!?!

Seriously though, why not? Is anything shameful about my nature? Is what I am a bad thing? Why should I hide what I am? On the other side of the coin, I do believe in discretion and I dont wear a neon sign saying "I'm a vampire". I'm not ashamed of what I am, nor afraid, nor should anyone be afraid of me but good judgment is always a good idea when divulging such things.


2. All vampires are your Brethren; treat all with proper respect.

This is actually true, and if all vampires, or if all people in general respected one another this would not be a problem. Also if all vampires or people in general behaved in a manner to warrant respect it would not be a problem.

Respect means a couple things to me. We should respect, as in be mindful, of the dignity of everyone simply because we all have a right to our dignity.

Respect as in "honor" shown to someone for their accomplishments... I guess I dont have a problem with that either since the wording says treat with "proper" respect. I treat people with the respect they earn/deserve.


3. The Elders are the foundation of our society,heed their council and beware their wrath.

I agree with the primary premise of the first two parts of this statement. The Elders are the foundation of our society and have proven themselves to be worthy of respect and a good degree of credibility. I believe anyone coming into a community would do well to give them credence as far as they continue to give sound leadership. The problem is that any foundation that continues to be the support for another thing, person, or group, unless that foundation is reinforced and given maintenance (and yes our Elders are human and need replentishment) that foundation crumbles. I think instead of heeding "Elders", the point is to heed good leadership, advice, instruction... regardless from where it comes. I think our Elders are our first line of support though.

"Beware their wrath"? Oh please... Excuse me while I go put on my "scared face". :rolleyes:

Any leader who has to lead out of fear, is not leading. S/he's controlling. One who follows a Leader, will follow that leader when the leader isn't immediately available. The follower will adopt the leader's beliefs and causes. One who leads out of fear, will have the follower's devotion until that "fear" is removed. Which means once the leader isn't looking, the follower will likely stop following.


4. Respect the territory you visit, either of solitary or House occupation. Always contact the Elders of the territory and advise them of your movements; this is for your protection.


Again one I agree with mostly but one part is just plain silly. I believe you show respect for the leader of anyplace you visit, be it a person's home, or a large community. But advise them of your movements?

"Umm leader, I had a movement about four hours ago, and I'm feeling another coming on."

What Leader has time to take the "movement notifications" of every visitor who comes along? Which of you elders would want me to PM you everytime I write something, or post something? (well, I mean before this post)

5. Conflict with other vampires should be kept to a minimum. Prior to a challenge always contact that vampire's Elders and your own before acting; this will keep peace amongst the houses.

Just too many mental images on this one to answer confidently. Define "challenge".

6. Never reveal another vampire openly.

True, that should always be left up to a person what they want revealed about themselves. This is true in anything.

7. Move within this world as part of it, conceal your nature for the good of all.

I already covered this but I'll say it again. I am not going to flaunt or advertise much of anything about myself. Likewise I'm not concealing any part of myself either, unless to reveal it would harm me or someone else.


8. Only the Elder can grant ingress to an Outsider (Donor, Mundane, Vampire or Elder). Failure to comply will result in immediate punishment.


Immediate punishment...

This is about that "wrath" thing again, right? :look:

9. Treat the mundane population with respect, we depend on them for nourishment - and they outnumber us.

A little dramatically stated but, yeah, okay.


10. Do not awaken or admit another to the lifestyle without careful research and consultation with the Elders and the House.


I really think this is all meant to be common sense, but was written at a time that dramatics was "cool". Like I said, I've never been in the community but are the Elders of "Houses" really such control freaks? The further I go, the more I'm feeling these places are cults.

11. Treat the donor with as much care as your own life.

Well, yeah. Treat everyone with as much care as yourself. None of us are more important, more valuable or more worthy of peace than any other.


12. Do not kill your own kind without leave.


"Vampiremaxx Theaters welcomes you to our double feature! Featuring the James Bond movie "License to Kill" and the sequel... "Leave to Kill" where Dracula meets Bond and the rules have all changed!"

*wipes away tears*


13. Wars between Houses/Clans is inevitable, such is our way to preserve the ideals of the society.


What happened to respect all vampire brethren and keep infighting to a minimum? I guess that's only for us little vampires.

14. Renegade vampire/houses are subject to the review of the Council. No individual Elder or Elders can pronounce judgement on a house without becoming rogue themselves, and thus subject to the Council.

In the least, no one person is holding and dealing all the power.


15. Should the Council deliver a verdict, it is observed as law amongst the society.


Sounds a bit power hungry in its delivery, but the premise is still sound.


16. It is possible to co-exist in the same territory with another House/Clan provided that each respects the others claim.


Nods

17. An exiled vampire is not permitted to join with another House/Clan. Should another house/clan accept them, they set themselves at odds with the House which initiated the exile.

Oh good grief. This one IS cultish.


18. Should an Elder be overthrown by his own, the House may appoint from within with approval from the Council.


Fair enough.


19. Fledgling houses are still subject to the Council, though they may appoint their Elders from within. They are directly responsible for any and all actions taken until the Council has contacted and approved of the Elder(s).

Not sure what a fledgling house is so I wont comment. Is a fledgling house a smaller house within the larger? Or is it what I think, and it's one being started outside of the original house?

Well, this ought to be interesting...:maniac:[/quote]

I've seen posts from both Stefan and Malcaius and both have really good and sound things to say.

I think they were either young when they wrote this, or I want some of what they were on when they wrote it... just not quite as much of it.

NO disrespect has been meant. I just found this characaturish and extremely humorous.

[Stefan]

LOL, I knew this was going to be a hot one. Hey, I was asked to post it, it's here. I'm not saying in any way that the letter of these should be followed in the here and now. This is how it was many, many, many years ago (before my time and probably everyone else's.

Let's not go overboard, shall we? My concept has always been the spirit of the old ways rather than the letter.

[darklin]

I was quite shocked when i read this and just sat looking at the screen shakin my head while pouting...lol
All i can say is im glad im here in 2007 because being me i would have run a mile if given half those rules to abide by.

[Camazotz]

LOL, I knew this was going to be a hot one. Hey, I was asked to post it, it's here. I'm not saying in any way that the letter of these should be followed in the here and now. This is how it was many, many, many years ago (before my time and probably everyone else's.

Let's not go overboard, shall we? My concept has always been the spirit of the old ways rather than the letter.

Do you have a specific source for them?

[Crystalforger]

I can't stand it...
I have to write something.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. You shall not Divulge your nature .
Fine; I don't go around blabbing about what color underwear I wear either.
2. All vampires are your Brethren; treat all with proper respect.
Respect is a two way street...
3. The Elders are the foundation of our society, heed their council and beware their wrath.
Their wrath? I don't even know who they ARE!
4. Respect the territory you visit, either of solitary or House occupation. Always contact the Elders of the territory and advise them of your movements; this is for your protection.
Hmmm.... I just moved down here, and I didn't see anyone listed in the phone book under 'elders'.... Oh, wait, that would go against rule no. 1, wouldn't it?
5. Conflict with other vampires should be kept to a minimum. Prior to a challenge always contact that vampire's Elders and your own before acting; this will keep peace amongst the houses.
Is this like having a duel in an old western? Can I sell tickets? Oh, and another thought...If they sell tickets, does the winner get some of the pot?
6. Never reveal another vampire openly.
ok... I don't reveal myself... Isn't that rule no. 1 again? Why would I reveal another even if I knew about another for sure? That would just make both of us look like idiots.
7. Move within this world as part of it, conceal your nature for the good of all.
For a long time I tried to be totaly invisible. This is not right or healthy. conceal my nature.... Back to rule no.1 again, but wait aminute... I may be in this world, but I am not of it.
8. Only the Elder can grant ingress to an Outsider (Donor, Mundane, Vampire or Elder). Failure to comply will result in immediate punishment.
ok. Now we're getting to the interesting stuff... Punishment? what are they going to spank me, and send me to my coff...er um...room for the night?
9. Treat the mundane population with respect, we depend on them for nourishment - and they outnumber us.
Here's this respect thing again. I think I said before, it's a two way street. Also, I find that those who are mature have a pretty good handle on respect.
10. Do not awaken or admit another to the lifestyle without careful research and consultation with the Elders and the House.

"Do not awaken..." Now just wait a minute... Is this a veiled reference to turning someone into a vampire? Everything I've ever read about turning someone who is not a vampire into a vampire was about as credible as those tablets you're supposed to put into your gas tank to get better mileage. You know those commercials are on at 3 A.M. for a reason. This is beginning to lose it's strenuous ties to credibility quickly.
11. Treat the donor with as much care as your own life.
Respect...Again.
12. Do not kill your own kind without leave.

"kill" ?
I don't know about you, but to me that's an awfully strong word. These rules have been treading a path very close to the edge of reality so far, but here they take a right turn directly off the precipice into insanity. This one "rule" calls them all into question, and makes them all seem like they are either someone's psychotic fantasy, or taken directly from some game (VtM comes to mind, though I've never played it).
And I also have to ask....Why didn't whomever originally composed these rules make that one number 13? The dramatic effect would have been so much better.
13. Wars between Houses/Clans is inevitable, such is our way to preserve the ideals of the society.
Again, a very childish and RPGish term used, I think, for drama. sure there will be disagreements, but "wars"? Makes me think of some gang. I will not be part of any gang, or any group that condones gangs.
14. Renegade vampire/houses are subject to the review of the Council. No individual Elder or Elders can pronounce judgement on a house without becoming rogue themselves, and thus subject to the Council.
There's a council? Where? When do they meet? I have to say these rules bring about just as many questions as they try to explain.
15. Should the Council deliver a verdict, it is observed as law amongst the society.
hm.... This society has little use for laws as it is. I know many have trouble with a lot of the laws that are enforced by a government that has the ability to enforce them, let alone decrees passed by a shodowy council that is dubious to say the least.
16. It is possible to co-exist in the same territory with another House/Clan provided that each respects the others claim.
Rule no. 2 again... Perhaps that should have been every other rule.
17. An exiled vampire is not permitted to join with another House/Clan. Should another house/clan accept them, they set themselves at odds with the House which initiated the exile.
And how would that other clan know he is exiled? There's no registry, like I mentioned before. I can hear it now "Hey, I'd like to be a member of your clan, but that house exiled me because I killed an elder..." I don't think the introduction would run quite that way.
18. Should an Elder be overthrown by his own, the House may appoint from within with approval from the Council.
Here we go with this council thing again...What if they don't approve. Is the overthrown elder readmitted or something?
19. Fledgling houses are still subject to the Council, though they may appoint their Elders from within. They are directly responsible for any and all actions taken until the Council has contacted and approved of the Elder(s).
There must be some registry I never got in the mail... Wait a minute, what about rule no.1?

Yes, Stefan, this has all been a very interesting trip into someone's fantasy. Some of the rules I can agree with... (like the one about killing another vampire. I don't think killing anyone is a good idea most of the time) But I would really like to know where these came from, who and where this council is, and how does anyone think this code can really be enforced when the fuirst rule is secrecy.
I really don't mean to scoff to hard (rule no. 2), but... Oh this is too much.

Thank you for bringing them out so we can all have a look, but please let us know where they are really from.

[Malcaius]

my teacher rest her soul and her elder, may his dust be pissed on, educated me in these "old ways" and i know that in scotland and in other older european countries their are still houses that follow such outdated rules.

the concept for this guidline was created in a time back when to claim you were anything but a goodly christian soldier was a fast trip to a burning, or some other form of miserable painfull death. and thus like most vampire history was kept mainly oral, because to be caught with such writtings would again equal that untimely horrible death. if there were any written copies of the old ways and other teachings from our past. they are most likely lost, destoyed, or guarded treasures of those who still cling to them.

no one here is expected to follow this code in this far more chotic and accepting time, because frankly there isnt much left of the old houses, or their territories. tho history does tend to repeat itself and already in places like GA and NY you see the modern house staking out ground and claiming them as their territories. so maybe one day such things might be needed, i follow some of the old rules but out here, our culture, our history and our lifestyle is a dead husk from what it used to be.

who knows what the future holds, but these are not dictates for the now, view them more as suggestions, and a history lesson from a time thankfully long behind both man and vampire. the past should be learnt from, what little remains, and most vampire history is oral and shared only amoungst house mates.

stefan and i came together and thought sharing what we were taught in past should be shared not to bring back some rigid caste system, or change the world, but just because knowledge from the past is scarce, my first vampire family died on me they were remanants of one of the old english houses, and they tryed but failed to rebuild their idea of the VC. i have no wish to see us return to such a strict way of life but thoght sharing would be good, chose to mock or make fun of me as you will, my heart and mind are at peace and the light of heaven watches over me.

[Stefan]

Thank you, Mal. I can see the heat of this topic from here. This was not posted to suggest these be followed now, or indeed ever again. These were collaborated between myself and Mal. The original Old Ways were an oral tradition, we simply gave them words.

I cannot believe this has gotten so out of hand...:eek:

[Alyushia]

That truly surprises you? *chuckles*

[Camazotz]

*smiles* I think most of us (and even those in houses) are of a lot more solitary mindset nowadays, so even though everyone understands that you're not 'promoting' (or even 'suggesting') these ways, they are still something which people are finding very passionate responses to.

It's nothing personal against you guys.. at least I would certainly hope not! At the very least, Mal should know by now that I hold him in the highest respect.

I think sometimes history disappoints a lot of people. Christians may hate the bloody past of their churchs, Germans will be disgusted at ever being thought to be Nazis and I, for one, would never like to be associated with any group where a fight to the death, or complete and utter deference to ANYONE was a potential or prerequisite of being a part.

Cama

[Vicereine]

Every society needs a past and a history. It forms and provides a basis for who we are today. The VC is no exception in my mind.

Every society has dark times in it; contemplates the spanish inquisition, the murders of royal family members to change monarchy etc.

European history is steeped in blood. And thats the mundane day to day kind. Why should our history be any different?

[Crystalforger]

I'm new here. I'll admit that openly. Not just new to Nox, but new to the whole vampire community. I may be as old as you Stefan, but I've only been in contact with other vampires for a little over a year. I'm still realizing that there have been vampires like us for ages (and my fingers hesitate to type such a word in this reference), and that they have always been the way we are, more or less.

I don't wish to doubt, but I would really love to see evidence of these older houses, and traditions... Just to satisfy my own personal curiosity. I'm sure many would feel likewise.

[Stefan]

That can be arranged, however (not to sound defensive or paranoid) I find it interesting the twist this thread has taken; some asked for a copy of this and I provided it. Now, I'm being asked to bring forth proof of older Houses and Elders in a virtual world. It is more difficult than you might think and to bring forth proof...in a virtual world...well, that's a little like asking someone to have faith, an intrinsic value that has no physical ability to be seen, heard, smelt, touched or tasted. Yet we have that.

I would direct you first and foremost to ChadSang who is a member here and has been a vampire since 1957; he can also attest to Elders and Houses before just about ANY of us were born.

Clan Ravenheart in Scotland is the oldest know House in existence at this time. I will look up their website info and post it. I was asked to join them several years ago, but declined for personal reasons.

More evidence will be brought forth if that is what is desired. Heaven help me, I'd hate to be marked lousy...

[Preist]

sorry had to post on this one i find it kind of funny that you mentioned clan ravenheart as being an old Scottish vampire house last time i remember finding there web site it was alot of Americans with distant Scottish relations.

i am Scottish i reside outside of Glasgow and have spent many an hour on the road visiting vamps all around the uk more so in my own country and for all that the Scottish vampire houses keep there doors closed as we are taught no one i know has heard or associated with this house

I could go into more detail about the covens and houses i have came across and fought with here but why bother its not relevant

the old ways are still around as i was taught here in Scotland and i haven't met a house yet that isn't dark it seems to be the way espesaly coming from the culture here
stefan you have expressed on many an occasion about not having to travel an occult path or a dark path just because your a vampire that i do agree with i have never taught that way so why would a Scots house invite you in with you being American and having a house based in Scotland ??

anyway i wont be around here for a good long while other projects await but i am sure someone will pass on my email to you for response

this has nothing to do with the last PM and to answer you i wouldnt have i come from a vampire upbringing if you will of settle it and have it settled and arguments and threats and slaps are not acceptible all you have to do is look at the OLD RULES you put up to know what i am talking about

Preist

[RKCoon]

What the Figgety F***? One, i cannot beleive i just saw this NOW, two.. well, lemme disect this before i get into 2....








I'm posting these as an FYI only; not intended to push an issue or cause controversy (or am I...muahhahahah...). Take 'em or leave 'em, some have asked about these in different threads so here they are...



The Old Ways
The Laws of the Society
Written down by Stefan and Malcaius [House Phoenix Resurectus]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. You shall not Divulge your nature .
Ill tell who-damn-well ever i bloody well please, TYVFM.

2. All vampires are your Brethren; treat all with proper respect.
WTF? thats like saying all humans are brothers - and weve seen how well this works historically. true, we share this ball of muck, but untill the masses pull thier heads out of thier asses, they have to earn my respect; it shant be given freely just for one claiming the title vampire.

3. The Elders are the foundation of our society, heed their council and beware their wrath.
Again, WTF? To be blunt, ive yet to meet an "elder" in person, of any kind; and on the whole, theres been none that ive seen thats done anything to earn this title, in my view.

4. Respect the territory you visit, either of solitary or House occupation. Always contact the Elders of the territory and advise them of your movements; this is for your protection.
*Snorts* ya, sure. White Wolf, anyone? Or, perhaps, VTM?

5. Conflict with other vampires should be kept to a minimum. Prior to a challenge always contact that vampire's Elders and your own before acting; this will keep peace amongst the houses.
White Wolf again....

6. Never reveal another vampire openly.
If it suits my needs, you bet your ass ill fry someone like this. that being said, if this is rferring to one whos not awakened, i take it on a case by case basis. Does that make me the OVC Outlaw (yet)?

7. Move within this world as part of it, conceal your nature for the good of all.
OK.... with this, i have to tend to agree with this - As ive said i dont know how many times, we as individuals and as a whole are far better and safer in the shadows than in the limelight. I personally see no need to advertise myself on the 6 oclock news.

8. Only the Elder can grant ingress to an Outsider (Donor, Mundane, Vampire or Elder). Failure to comply will result in immediate punishment.
Back to White Wolf...

9. Treat the mundane population with respect, we depend on them for nourishment - and they outnumber us.
Dramatical, but true, painfully so.

10. Do not awaken or admit another to the lifestyle without careful research and consultation with the Elders and the House.
aside of the pretty damned obvious White Wolf references, i can agree with the thought of not telling those who are not ready for our "world", forcing the issue too soon tends to be damaging.

11. Treat the donor with as much care as your own life.
This is a, "Well DUH!"

12. Do not kill your own kind without leave.
o.O Without Leave? WTF? if i knew what the Hades that meant i could better comment on this.

13. Wars between Houses/Clans is inevitable, such is our way to preserve the ideals of the society.
well, if the internet is ANY example whatsoever on this..... Iether way, again, White Wolf....

14. Renegade vampire/houses are subject to the review of the Council. No individual Elder or Elders can pronounce judgement on a house without becoming rogue themselves, and thus subject to the Council.
Why are my cheeks and ears burning on this? Hmm. LOL

15. Should the Council deliver a verdict, it is observed as law amongst the society.
So Speaketh General Bushel..... Oh, wait, sorry, wrong window...

16. It is possible to co-exist in the same territory with another House/Clan provided that each respects the others claim.
A good idea, if ripped, again, from White Wolf...

17. An exiled vampire is not permitted to join with another House/Clan. Should another house/clan accept them, they set themselves at odds with the House which initiated the exile.
I feel my ears and cheeks warm again... lmfao

18. Should an Elder be overthrown by his own, the House may appoint from within with approval from the Council.
OK, What the Hades is with all this Council crap? i mean, SERIOUSLY. ive seen i dunno how many online "councils, as Merticus said, if i had a dime for every one thats been, id never need to work again! can we PLEASE lose the dramatical babblings and cut to the chase here??

19. Fledgling houses are still subject to the Council, though they may appoint their Elders from within. They are directly responsible for any and all actions taken until the Council has contacted and approved of the Elder(s).
Riiigggghhhtttt... see above.

Well, this ought to be interesting...:maniac:






WELL, as ive (rather blatantly) hinted at, this reeks more than i did after i rolled my truck into a burning garbage dump trench. and, Stefan, ya may not be pushing it ,but you got your controversy, head on.

So, time to call the cards on this one....

Stefan, (and ChadSang, as Stefan names him specificly) -- You state, for the public record, that "old" houses and elders exist. setting this entire list of something that, if i were to look, im certain id find paraphrased from white wolf or gods know whatever other RPG, Yet, in both cases (persons) ive yet to see materialise any form of evidence to support these claims. Stefan, i know, is considered widely respected, and i have personally seen some of his older posts, back before the original (at least, the one i first joined) form of this board was around still, so i know he is reasonably knowledgeable -- i cannot say the same for CS, especially since ive never seen him before here, nor have anyoen ive asked, that isnt from this board. Iether way, reading this list here, being stated as "at one time verbatim" if ive the terminology right, realllllyyyy casts a serious pale of doubt at this entire board.

My point to this is this -- ive seen both persons complain, repeatedly in fact, that the content of this board has slipped away form vampirism, be it sang or psi. I then see this load of what can only be called the purest of tripe, not fit for a third rate RPG,, being passed off by Stefan, one who both claimed and was given "elder" status by this boards staff, as more or less word for word of what we came from, in short, someone who is SUPPOSED to know his "game", know his stuff. You state, Stefan, that these were "oral tradition that you putto words" - this, to this anal assed raccoon, sounds too damned convineint of a way to say "i cant prove it".

Ahhuh. Sorry, but this Raccoon has had enough of this. ive seen a number of good people leave this board because of the shifting policies and mindsets here, and i have a list of people that eats up both hands and feet of people a hairs breath from leaving for the same damned reason -- but up till now everyones been on a "play nice" mode, not wantin to rock the boat. screw that, im firing the volley across the bow.

So, fine, the Raccoon's makin noise again - Stefan, CS, please, do be so kind as to show SOME form of proof to what you say, to what you claim, to those of us who grew up and taught themselves, completely separated by any of this supposed "council/group/thing". Ive spent over 6 years weeding out vampirism, for what it is and is not, and right now, i am not convinced by a single damned word being said here. Im pushing it further still, to the point to say for the record -- this board is in pretty damned serious trouble folks -- this time, from with in. Ive also been to Canada's biggest city, long enough that if any of these supposed vamps/groups wanted to make contact with me, they could have done so VERY easily.

Yes, im annoyed. i have been since before i got back online. Yes, im being a loudmouthed ass. Yes, im stirring the hornet's nest -- and if you want to call me a drama queen, thats your choice -- but im not keepin my muzzle shut. I might suggest, instead of dissmissing me as being an ass(which, ok, i am, but thats beside the point) -- ask why it is i wold say such a thing. Has anyone here ever actually SEEN these houses, these councils? has anyone here ever dealt, one on one, IN PERSON, with such entities? i know i aint.

If we are a "real vampire" board - lets settle this issue, once and for all. Me, ive had enough of this nonsense.

[stainless]

I'd like to point out that actual physical existant Vampire houses and clubs think Waaaaay differently than online and/ or RP communities.

I think imposing rules on an online or RP community is hazzardoud at best, everyone has their own ideas etc...

also, I find it all quite amusing but I humbly and respectfully accept people's opinions and thoughts on these really quite convoluted situations.

Anyone every been to a "house" or "coven" that called itself by these names and wasn't full of RPers? no offence intended of course, but all the Vamps I've met didn't need labels and were generally a balance between spirituality and the baser urges, great people all of them and gods DAMN can they party! Have the scars to prove it ;)

[darkangel5778]

my own opinion is that while the so called "old rules" used to have effect they need to be updated now. This is a new era and a new society, so maybe a refresher course might be in order. While some are still relevent msot are not, in fact as RK was pointing out, they are now laughable, to the point that they can be comapred to modern RPG. and now my question is this.why put this up in the first place????:confused:

[RKCoon]

Well, i DID ask him to put it up in all fairness.. but i wasnt expecting THAT.

[Stefan]

RK (and to others on this thread),

Firstly, I did post these at your request, and the request of some others. You said you did not expect this; what were you expecting? With my creativity, don't you think I could have manufatured something better than this if I were trying to delude the masses?

When Malcaius was stateside several years ago, we sat down, discussed our combined knowledge of the Old Ways, and wrote these out. There was more in relation to rites, tribunals and so forth, but I did not think it necessary to print those out. Thank goodness I didn't.

I myself extend back in this condition prior to 1994, or the advent of the Internet. These were expressed to me in the late 80's by one Jonquain. I believe he was French-Canadian, to be precise, but I was only around him for a few months. During that time, if you were awakened, you couldn't just log in and find information. Since I am a bit of a "digger," I had consulted many sources referring to vampirism. The one that gave me the most information at the time, and to this day I can't believe I read it, was the Satanic Bible. There were some other obscure references in other books, but beyond the mythology there really wasn't readily availble infomation in those days. I learned what I could from who I could.

You are asking to produce proof (I take that meaning to be hard evidence) in a virtual world (one of the things I'm on about quite a bit). Priest pointed out, just as I did to another who brought this to me, that there are Houses out there that are still very private and secluded who did not join the information highway. As far as this goes, and as I pointed out earlier, this "translation" came from oral tradition.

Take for example the Native Americans. All but for a few did not have a written language. Therefore, their traditions, customs, religious beliefs, codes, etc...were passed on from father to son. Now, unless they all had a photographic memory, there is bound to be something lost in translation. The first five books of the Bible, Genesis to be precise, were supposedly written by Moses; yet they "explain" the beginnings of all things, according to the Hebrew (Judeo-Christian) belief. What proof could he, or anyone else, offer.

You are really making a mountain out of a molehill here. I'm sure that what we wrote down is incomplete. Somewhere is probably a full rendering of such things on a shelf in a House that does not necessarily communicate with the "outside world." However, I myself have not seen a hard copy; simply what was dictated to me years ago.

I posted this merely as information of what I have gathered over the years. Do I agree with these? Not in the purest sense. To say this is the code we should be going by is ludicrous; this would be a good foundation for a fascist state. I mean, come on, "don't kill your own kind?" How many of us in this day and age have to worry of such? These are, in the letter of the document, medieval at best. It is the spirit of the code that I am more interested in. Do we need this revamped? Absolutely. The Constitution of the United States has been amended many times to accomodate the passage of time and the will of the people (presumably...sometimes we wonder...). Do I think we need such a code? Debatable. Apparently we can't come to the same conclusion that the sky is blue, much less correct/amend/create something that we can see as ours. Silly me. Boy, have I been wasting my time all these years...

The only reason this is here is by request, and perhaps to hold a mirror up to see where we have come from. "Well gee, Stefan, where did we come from? Can you prove it?" Obviously I'm being a tad cynical on that, but at least I TRY to look for such things and answers to questions that have yet to even reasonably be approached.

So, I think everyone may have taken all this the wrong way. And I'll be happy to not mention anything I know, or have studied/researched. At the risk of sounding like a martyr, I'll even keep my damn mouth shut. But I really think this is going too far.

And as for Chad, all I can do is vouch for the man. I have had the opportunity to speak with him several times in person, and I can say unreservedly he is the real deal and a very caring and compassionate person, especially where the VC is concerned.

S

[Camazotz]

Stefan... certainly for myself asking where these things came from is not something that you should be taking as a personal attack... there's really no need for that.

As someone who researches and studies (rather like you're saying you do yourself) then it is HIGHLY important to me to know the source of anything. Without knowing the source a document has no validity whatsoever. So, you say now who it was passed down from and that gives it a context in which it can then be examined and understood.

You seem to be taking offence that people here question. Maybe perhaps the questions aren't always phrased in a manner that you then understand the reasons behind them, but surely it is when people stop questioning that we should have to worry?

No-one is asking you to not post, or not share, but just to be given more insight in the first place into where things have come from. I think if it had been more clearly stated in the initial post, then much of this debate would not have occured. Surely you see that yourself?

[Stefan]

Absolutely, nor am I saying I absolutely will not post. Simply frustrated. It was a mistake to begin this thread, and it was my mistake not to list sources of any kind. It's not like you can look such things up in the library of congress. And I'm not taking particular offense to anyone. Simply put, such things, outdated as they may be, are best left in the past where they belong. I never said these were guidelines to be followed, simply pointing out that this was the mentality of those in the prehistoric days of our existence, since all such idealism has been swept away by the modern Renaissance. And I'm not regretful of that.

It's when we forget the past that we are doomed to repeat its mistakes. However, 'nuff said.

S

[Savion]

As someone who researches and studies (rather like you're saying you do yourself) then it is HIGHLY important to me to know the source of anything. Without knowing the source a document has no validity whatsoever.

Agreed, which is the same reason I questioned. It had nothing to do with Stefan's integrity. I have read other posts from him and know his intentions are not deceitful. I am always interested in knowledge but also the sources through which our traditions are handed down.

It was a mistake to begin this thread, and it was my mistake not to list sources of any kind.

I do not think it was a mistake to begin this thread. It is most interesting to see the old ways as you learned them. In the first post you stated as written down by Stefan and Malcaius [House Phoenix Resurectus]. This indicated to me one of two things. Either these were the general traditions as you learned them orally and wrote them down or the traditions of a singular house, Phoenix Resurectus. This is most importantly the clarification I sought.

Simply put, such things, outdated as they may be, are best left in the past where they belong.

Again, I do not agree. For this statement resounds the truth most distinctly:

It's when we forget the past that we are doomed to repeat its mistakes.


Such documents as the one you have supplied reminds us and perhaps keeps us from repeating at least some of our mistakes. I wish to thank you for writing it and clarifying some confusion as to the source, as least my own confusion, as I cannot speak for others.

[Malcaius]

there are many things that were never written as far as i know, like I'm sure not many people were taught vampire etiquette at diners/party's, and i doubt most would care. nor would i ever suggest we follow this old way, because thats precisely what it is "old" out dated, this is as Stefan put it the Renaissance age of the vampire people, were learning, growing, and even creating (if you don't believe me on that part look at the poetry section its flooded by brilliant pieces of work)

the modern vampire does not huddle in fear of church or country hunting it down and murdering it in cold blood, it has rights and freedoms, its protected by the same laws as everyone else, only in the most back wards of places is there any real danger to them (bar the occasional hunter, but all you have to do is say officer that mans a psycho and its dealt with) eventually this modern community might lay down a truly neutral and useful code for all vampire kind (and if you say the black veil is a good guideline for vampire life, ill gouge your eyes out with a spork it needs work... lots of work), the old ways are not for us, some of us were taught them, a few may even be old enough to have suffered under them, but they are no more, except for in the most reclusive and most times back wards of house in Europe and the middle east.

so lets not ride our high horse's and throw slander at people who only wish to teach and show examples, to share what little scraps they have of our past, because in all fairness there are plenty of times id have loved to say RK shut up your full of crap, or hey prove it Rev, but i haven't and i never will, because i learnt not to shit were i eat, and i think we all need to remember this isn't a head bashing contest but an exchange of ideas, history and lore we all learnt and all believe to be true.

accusing people of being RP'ers is wrong and i think someone owes Stefan, Chadsang and myself an apology

i myself apologies to anyone i have offended in the making of this post

[Vicereine]

again I would like to expand upon what i posted earlier.

Every society has its history, everyone has to have roots and anchors to give them something to learn and grow from.

Are we all so forgetful of humanities wars? its genocides? its bigotry and hunts of small groups? No one contests that these things are abhorrant, no one states that they are the persuit of the wise and enlightened. However, they do go on, and they exsist.

What confuses me, is why some find it so hard to believe that vampirism has its own history, its own roots, and as with humanity, its own mistakes.

This does not detract it from being part of where we come from. It does NOT mean its where we have to return.

In my humble opinion, people need to remember in order to move forward we have to know what we move from, otherwise, how do we know which direction to go?

As i said, just my humble opinion.

[Camazotz]

Mal... if yourself or Stefan have more of this sort of info then it should be posted, with sources. It is important that things aren't forgotten, even if they only serve (at times) to remind us of how far we have come, or dark places we should not entertain returning to.

In my country we don't have this tradition.. we have our own roots, or own dark magickal paths but nothing of this sort- so it is intruiging. I certainly do wish to know these things, who taught them and how many actually followed them. How did old houses come together before the net.. how did people find each other and how ostracised (or special) did they feel from a 'mundane' (hate the word) populace that they would agree to, or even draw up, rules like this in the first place?

[Stefan]

As I am able to uncover such, I will be happy to post WITH REFERENCES if permission is granted. I will not besmirch the trust built up in learning/researching. Bonds are hard to make but easy to destroy...

[Vicereine]

ok. At risk of being shot down, I have a question.

Before the question I would like to mention a couple of things. Firstly, I understand the need for references and proof, or at least a nod to sources. Secondly, I also understand how this kind of information has been passed on by word of mouth in trust and on honour.

So my question is this, can we not take the old rules mentioned in the intial post as a metaphor, or as a rod that marks the passage of time.

There is still much to be learned from it as either of these things. Sure, we could debate back and forth about the need for backing up sources and the need to maintain the honour code adhered to by the passing on of knowledge via word of mouth, but is that not missing the lesson that can be learnt here?

Some of the greatest lessons in the world come from ancient folk tales, 'proper' fairy tales and even urban legends in some cases. I mean no offense and i am by no means saying that the sources for the intial post are fairy tales. What I mean to say is that the source here is, to a certain extent, irrelevent.

The lesson here to me, is to remind us how far we have come. To restore some faith in the evolutionary process of our community over time. It shows we have history (and most historical records are biased and written from only one viewpoint) and as such we have a future.. cant we use it as a marker, and not as a bone of contention?

Ill be quiet now and return to my random dancing on tables (moment of madness in chat box).

again, just my opinion

;)

[Stefan]

Thank you, V. My point exactly.

[Vicereine]

you're welcome Stefan. Being a writer i tend to read to between the lines most of the time and see meaning where some dont.. but then i can see meaning in a puddle if im so disposed at the time ;).

Everything is a lesson and a metaphor to me most times.. an analyst would have a field day with me.

[darkangel5778]

I have sat back as it were and watched this thread, and from everything hat has been said I can say this. Learning our roots and the truths we found early on is good, because if we forget we as a race are doomed to repeat things which is why in history classes we are taught the past so as not to make the same mistakes (hilter's takeover of poland in 1938.Funny thing was that in 1918 when president Roosevelt (not franklin delenor) warned that such a thing would happen if we did not learn........ah the irony and then eventual demise(unless you are a consiracy theorist lmao), Napoleon's rise to power and fall Alexander's too see a pattern??? and yes there are several more but I am writing in a hurry)
however, as some have stated, these rules do need to be looked at as just a lesson to our past, and so our future does not look quite so grim. They are reminders of who we were and how far we are today.............we are not going downhill mroe lor less at a plateau, struggling to catch up with todays modern technology, and sometimes it is hard and therefor, good to review the rules everyone in a while so we don't slip back down. umm sorry if I did not make sense guys I am LATE!!!!!!:bat:

[Camazotz]

The lesson here to me, is to remind us how far we have come. To restore some faith in the evolutionary process of our community over time. It shows we have history (and most historical records are biased and written from only one viewpoint) and as such we have a future.. cant we use it as a marker, and not as a bone of contention?


You make a great point here Vicereine, but I think that is the very reason people want to know the source, so they can then contextualise the material as being a historical record and attempt to understand whose history it is a part of. Whilst the old teachings of say a specific house (for example)are a part of vampire history, they are not necessarily a part of all of our heritages, in the same way that not every piece of native american writing is a part of the heritage of modern Americans.

Perhaps I am incorrect in saying that, but just an attempt to explain a different point of view.

I suppose at the end of the day, without really having an understanding of why we are the way we are, then this is a contentious issue. If there were some clear genetic cause for our condition (for example) then we could all say 'yes, this is the history of our people'... but we have never established (nor even agreed that we would like to) that we are all of some common ancestry, cause etc.

[Eclecta]

Wow. I knew this one was gonna get some talk, but wow.

I remember some of this being talked about some years ago. I remember thinking it sounded kinda dramatic then, and I still think that. But I know that folks who practiced these old ways did have a thing for the flair of the past. That's why they still run around in frock coats. But, we all know what it means.

I'd love to know who this originally came from too. But I doubt we'll figure it out, unless someone brings forth the old "scrolls," LOL.

Some time ago, people did do things differently. I remember thinking that it was a bit too glam for me. I'm so plain and simple. But still I knew what it all meant.

[RKCoon]

(btw, sorry that its all within the quotes, i was never much good at coding and such)


RK (and to others on this thread),

Firstly, I did post these at your request, and the request of some others. You said you did not expect this; what were you expecting? With my creativity, don't you think I could have manufatured something better than this if I were trying to delude the masses?

I did ask -- but i wasnt expecting something that, in my veiw, is straight from an RPG. as far asthe rest of it, i cant comment, i dont know you well enough to say either way.

When Malcaius was stateside several years ago, we sat down, discussed our combined knowledge of the Old Ways, and wrote these out. There was more in relation to rites, tribunals and so forth, but I did not think it necessary to print those out. Thank goodness I didn't.

Ive heard that theres even more to this than what you printed -- and your quite right, i expect the responses would be even more... vehement than they are now. that being said, id have to think that if any of thise "rites, tribunals and so forth" did ever happen, thered be some form of trail to show this.

I myself extend back in this condition prior to 1994, or the advent of the Internet. These were expressed to me in the late 80's by one Jonquain. I believe he was French-Canadian, to be precise, but I was only around him for a few months. During that time, if you were awakened, you couldn't just log in and find information. Since I am a bit of a "digger," I had consulted many sources referring to vampirism. The one that gave me the most information at the time, and to this day I can't believe I read it, was the Satanic Bible. There were some other obscure references in other books, but beyond the mythology there really wasn't readily availble infomation in those days. I learned what I could from who I could.

Well, i have never heard of the character, buti HAVE read the Satanic bible - so, that provides one source. what are the others?

You are asking to produce proof (I take that meaning to be hard evidence) in a virtual world (one of the things I'm on about quite a bit). Priest pointed out, just as I did to another who brought this to me, that there are Houses out there that are still very private and secluded who did not join the information highway. As far as this goes, and as I pointed out earlier, this "translation" came from oral tradition.

I mean that to be books that are locatable and readable, places perhaps if possible.Yesyes, ive heard, and hell, i tend to agree (in theory) that thered be groups out that keep the hell out of the internet - but i dont know that 100%. if i did, id come up with some way to somehow back making any claims to such.

Take for example the Native Americans. All but for a few did not have a written language. Therefore, their traditions, customs, religious beliefs, codes, etc...were passed on from father to son. Now, unless they all had a photographic memory, there is bound to be something lost in translation. The first five books of the Bible, Genesis to be precise, were supposedly written by Moses; yet they "explain" the beginnings of all things, according to the Hebrew (Judeo-Christian) belief. What proof could he, or anyone else, offer.

Now your getting into religion - something vampirism is not, and in my expeirence, its only the lunatics out there that consider it such. that being said, and i realise it sounds somewhat contradictory here, but seeing as most of us here are vamps, we generally are able to tell on our own review weather something is genuine to us or not, since we (for the most part) dont wish us 100% rock solid provable.

You are really making a mountain out of a molehill here. I'm sure that what we wrote down is incomplete. Somewhere is probably a full rendering of such things on a shelf in a House that does not necessarily communicate with the "outside world." However, I myself have not seen a hard copy; simply what was dictated to me years ago.

And again we get back to the notion that such a thing (houses) have existed longer than the internet. Generally, history has a way of flushing out secret groups/organisations, and since theyve never surfaced, even enough for those of us that SHOULD be considered "on the inside" to be able to say, yes theyve been around for many decades, and we can show as much. as far as makin too much of it? i dont know, seems to me that many of us "younger" people are getting rather fatigued of people claiming to know it all, then not backing it up. vampirism, i can explain, to the point where most all save the most skeptic can understand, if not fully beleive. houses, covens, and so on thatve existed for decades or more? all talking about that in anything more than the hyporthetical sence does is ruin whatever little credibility we may have to date.

I posted this merely as information of what I have gathered over the years. Do I agree with these? Not in the purest sense. To say this is the code we should be going by is ludicrous; this would be a good foundation for a fascist state. I mean, come on, "don't kill your own kind?" How many of us in this day and age have to worry of such? These are, in the letter of the document, medieval at best. It is the spirit of the code that I am more interested in. Do we need this revamped? Absolutely. The Constitution of the United States has been amended many times to accomodate the passage of time and the will of the people (presumably...sometimes we wonder...). Do I think we need such a code? Debatable. Apparently we can't come to the same conclusion that the sky is blue, much less correct/amend/create something that we can see as ours. Silly me. Boy, have I been wasting my time all these years...

On this, at least, i can agree -- IF such a thing does exist, its so hopelessly out of date and rigid to be all but useless, save in a purely historical context. past this, i think that a simple basic moral code that, from what ive seen, most of us have anyway, is a sufficient building foundation - and not using that RPG crap, especially along the lines of what belanger and sebastian/todd did.


The only reason this is here is by request, and perhaps to hold a mirror up to see where we have come from. "Well gee, Stefan, where did we come from? Can you prove it?" Obviously I'm being a tad cynical on that, but at least I TRY to look for such things and answers to questions that have yet to even reasonably be approached.

My whole point of "coming unglued" is that your saying that this, the whole item you posted, is where we came from, but have really nothing to show that such is true. In short, if your going to say that "this is our origins" - have something more than word of mouth to back it with, or present it as a theory, not claim it as a solid fact. we have enough bad reputation as is - we dont need more(and while i really dont give a flying rats tail about what people think of ME, i DO care what our community as a whole is percived as.)

So, I think everyone may have taken all this the wrong way. And I'll be happy to not mention anything I know, or have studied/researched. At the risk of sounding like a martyr, I'll even keep my damn mouth shut. But I really think this is going too far.

All im asking for is something more than word of mouth to back anything you wish to claim as solid fact. that is not much to ask for.

And as for Chad, all I can do is vouch for the man. I have had the opportunity to speak with him several times in person, and I can say unreservedly he is the real deal and a very caring and compassionate person, especially where the VC is concerned.

I judge, personally, on what i see. what ive seen to date has been less than impressive. beyond that i reserve comments.




Oh, and Mal -- People are always welcome to speak thier mind to me directly. Hell, i expect people to say STFU to me -- they usually dont appreciate my unique "approach" to things. ;)

[Vicereine]

You make a great point here Vicereine, but I think that is the very reason people want to know the source, so they can then contextualise the material as being a historical record and attempt to understand whose history it is a part of. Whilst the old teachings of say a specific house (for example)are a part of vampire history, they are not necessarily a part of all of our heritages, in the same way that not every piece of native american writing is a part of the heritage of modern Americans.

Perhaps I am incorrect in saying that, but just an attempt to explain a different point of view.

I suppose at the end of the day, without really having an understanding of why we are the way we are, then this is a contentious issue. If there were some clear genetic cause for our condition (for example) then we could all say 'yes, this is the history of our people'... but we have never established (nor even agreed that we would like to) that we are all of some common ancestry, cause etc.


Hi Cama,

i understand what you are saying here. Normarily I would be agreeing whole heartedly with you. However, my point is that the virtual community as a whole is almost unprovable. As I beleive you said in another post there are those predisposed to drama, those who lie and those who are jaded and too innocent.

All I was saying was that perhaps in this instance this might be the better course of action in relation to this thread. Otherwise what are we left with, constant bickering and an inability to prove without betraying trust.

On a side note, I agree that cultural differences indicate localised historical relevance, but somethings are universally humanities history and even though not the perpetrators or instigators still relevent as a lesson to be learned or remembered.

For example, I take great pride in my celtic roots but I also share Pride in the acheivement of humanity in such things as the great pyramid and armstrong landing on the moon.

I wasnt suggesting for a moment that everyone should accept these as gospel, merely the idea that they COULD be, and to place them in a general historical context to modern vampirism and our community. To learn from them as I said, not miss what they symbolise.

Anyway, thats my two cents worth.

man its good to stretch the grey matter.......

*goes in search of coffee*

[Camazotz]

*smiles* You're one of a kind Vicereine... and all that without coffee? You make a very good point and it's nice to actually have someone put across their meaning so well.

I guess maybe it's something to do with what Eclecta mentioned about people being jaded, or perhaps being a vamp/therian and other besides that mix that I find it hard in a lot of ways to personally relate to a common heritage. I would like to see more such info posted though, there are a lot of things we can all learn from it.

Thanks again,
Cama

[Vicereine]

*smiles* You're one of a kind Vicereine... and all that without coffee? You make a very good point and it's nice to actually have someone put across their meaning so well.

I guess maybe it's something to do with what Eclecta mentioned about people being jaded, or perhaps being a vamp/therian and other besides that mix that I find it hard in a lot of ways to personally relate to a common heritage. I would like to see more such info posted though, there are a lot of things we can all learn from it.

Thanks again,
Cama

Aww thanks... for what its worth, I dont play well with others generally either. It takes a great deal for me to totally trust someone and once that is abused, i become less 'cohesive' shall we say.

I'd be the kid in the playground the sign round their neck 'careful I bite'.

Im one of those that likes to know there are others like me near by, but generally doesnt group well.. Nice to catch up with you again :)

[Camazotz]

*smiles* I think I've been playing devil's advocate a bit of late... I can see where a lot of others are coming from and trying to explain their POV, because otherwise it's just degenerating into arguments which wouldn't need to occur so much if points were put across better.

And nice to catch up with yourself as well... it's great to have you back :)

[Rikkar]

1. You shall not Divulge your nature .
Logical, to a point. We face much discrimination, up to and including violence. However, not practical and not always desired. How are we going to gain the acceptance of our supporters unless we tell them?

2. All vampires are your Brethren; treat all with proper respect.
Respect is earned, not automatically granted. I treat all with respect who merit it.

3. The Elders are the foundation of our society, heed their council and beware their wrath.
The population of any community, including this one, is the foundation of it's society, not the Elders. The Elders guide the community. I do not "beware" anyone's wrath.

4. Respect the territory you visit, either of solitary or House occupation. Always contact the Elders of the territory and advise them of your movements; this is for your protection.
Agreed, to a point. Always show respect for another person's home. However, I have never heard of a city or other territory being divided between vampiric Elders. From what I have heard, this is a White Wolf construct ("Princes" and that lot).

5. Conflict with other vampires should be kept to a minimum. Prior to a challenge always contact that vampire's Elders and your own before acting; this will keep peace amongst the houses.
Agreed, again, to a point. Conflict should be kept to a minimum, but then I believe this applies to all people, vampire or not. Agreed again that the Elders of the community should be sought as council first.

6. Never reveal another vampire openly.
Agreed unconditionally.

7. Move within this world as part of it, conceal your nature for the good of all.
Agreed, in theory. Vampires are so persecuted that concealment would logically benefit all of us, however, this is not practical. We have the Don Henrie's of the world, we have the young who have to run out and declare "I am a vampire!". We are "outted". Now that we are "outted" would it not be better to show ourselves to be decent human beings?

8. Only the Elder can grant ingress to an Outsider (Donor, Mundane, Vampire or Elder). Failure to comply will result in immediate punishment.
If you are referencing a specific House, agreed. Any prospective House member should apply to the Elders appointed to such tasks. If you are speaking of a larger community, this is not practical. I disagree with immediate punishment. Firstly, who is to determine what, exactly, is the punishment and what, exactly, is the "crime". If someone transgresses without knowing the rules, should they be punished as harshly as someone who transgresses while knowing the rules?

9. Treat the mundane population with respect, we depend on them for nourishment - and they outnumber us.
Agreed but not for the reason you state. Treat the mundane population with respect if they merit respect. Treat them with respect out of our own courtesy.

10. Do not awaken or admit another to the lifestyle without careful research and consultation with the Elders and the House.
You cannot awaken another vampire. That comes naturally, if it is going to occur at all.

11. Treat the donor with as much care as your own life.
Agreed. However, I say this instead: "treat your loved ones with as much care as your own life".

12. Do not kill your own kind without leave.
Do not kill anyone, our own "kind" or otherwise... period! Do not do it without leave and do not do it with leave.

13. Wars between Houses/Clans is inevitable, such is our way to preserve the ideals of the society.
Wars? I disagree. Arguments? Yes. Arguments, disagreements, fallings out are normal and natural within the human species.

We are not nations or gangs or any other such who has "wars". I, personally, do not know of any actual "Clans".. just Houses and alliances between Houses.

14. Renegade vampire/houses are subject to the review of the Council. No individual Elder or Elders can pronounce judgement on a house without becoming rogue themselves, and thus subject to the Council.
Agreed, to a degree. Those who transgress against House rules should be brought to the review of an Elder or a council of them appointed to this task. If the House is large enough to have a good, solid base of Elders, agreed with the next part: it should be up to more than one. If it is at all possible, in fact, it should be more than one.

15. Should the Council deliver a verdict, it is observed as law amongst the society.
Which society? This appears to be a statement of a much larger consolidated population base than actually exists. All that I have seen is, as I said, Houses or allegiances between Houses. Now, I agree that if a verdict is delivered upon whatever-the-topic by the Elders appointed to the task, it should be heeded within that House or alliance of Houses.

Society? No. The House or alliance of Houses do not dictate for the entiris of society... just themselves.

16. It is possible to co-exist in the same territory with another House/Clan provided that each respects the others claim.
Again there is the word "territory" and, again, I have never heard of any "Clan" having "territory". I believe that members of the various Houses should grant each other respect, if respect is merited. If it is not, just do not deal with the person or persons who do not merit respect.

17. An exiled vampire is not permitted to join with another House/Clan. Should another house/clan accept them, they set themselves at odds with the House which initiated the exile.
One House does not have the right to dictate to another House unless the other House is in allegiance.

18. Should an Elder be overthrown by his own, the House may appoint from within with approval from the Council.
Agreed.

19. Fledgling houses are still subject to the Council, though they may appoint their Elders from within. They are directly responsible for any and all actions taken until the Council has contacted and approved of the Elder(s).
Agreed. If a new House splinters off of the old House and is allied with the old one, the new one should show direct allegiance to the originating House. Of course, how many Houses are there out there?