Elders, Old Ways, the present and the future

[Stefan]

While this dissertation may be long, I shall try not to be overly wordy. If the Administrators or Moderators wish to sticky this or make it an article, feel free. I am simply reflecting my thoughts here and welcome any feedback. Given time, I may have to add to this. Additions will be denoted with an asterisk (*).

During my absence, I had the opportunity to reflect not only on myself, but on the VC at large. I observed the behavious of younglings and Elders alike. I watched and listened as our people revealed themselves and made fools of themselves. I watched in horror as a person commited murder as a vampire, then in disgust as the self-appointed spokespeople for us flock to the press to cover up. I have watched the drama of our society begin to turn into acts of violence one upon the other.

And I ask myself, why?

The internet has been both a blessing and a curse to us. It has, in many ways, allowed us to become closer, melting away distance to a simple keyboard. At the same time, it has brought about a total disregard of the Old Ways; the pride of being who we are is nearly gone. Oh, many LOVE to stand up and say, "I'm a vampire and screw you if you don't like it!" Humourous and childish, to say the least.

Why is it that this has come about? The concept of Houses and protection, learning and temperance has all but dissapated. The Elders are either reviled or disregarded, seen only as a figurehead at best. And all the time, everyone squabbles and continues the drama, while complaining that there's too much of it to begin with.

A few thoughts have come to mind and I shall share them.

I have failed. As an Elder, I have failed my former House and my people.

I am not alone. The Elders as a whole have failed.

What is an Elder? This question has been tossed back and forth. Some say the Elders are power-mongering dictators. Others say we're a joke. Some want to be seen as an Elder for some mythological prestige.

Being an Elder is really none of those things. An Elder has the responsibility to lead by example and to teach others; an Elder is supposed to be there to protect the community and it's members and help build it; an Elder is supposed to be there to care for the members of the House (and beyond), to help heal wounds, teach and care. It is a job, not a title; it does not give you the ability to lord and it does not give you the excuse to stand by and watch. Eldership is a 24/7 job; it is likened unto being a parent. It is not a badge to be flashed, but to be a badge of honor; to be upheld and respected but most importantly, to be earned and not bestowed.

I've noticed that the Elders nowadays have private agendas. Any who says they don't is a liar. These agendas can be benign, benevolent, maligned or malevolent. If any Elder has plans that do not go to the greater good of the community, these Elders should be held in contempt.

As you can see, I have changed. I too have an agenda. It is simply Unity. My mistake was to try and unify over an area too large to really comprehend. Now, I think globally and act locally, for there are so many problems right here in my local area, they need the attention. Every Elder should see things that way.

What of the future? In my opinion, we should not be thinking as a community. We should have more of an attitude of Society. We should be looking out for each other instead of finding fault and creating (perpetuating) conflict on any level. There's conflict enough, and there always will be no matter how close we get. Don't believe me? How long have you known your best friend, yet had arguments with them? People are not always going to see eye-to-eye. If they do, they've been brainwashed.

I am still a follower of the Old Ways, and will continue to do so. I hope to be able to share that knowledge and experience, however it will only be to those who have a desire to see themselves as more than an internet jockey.

If this offends some, I am sorry. It is not my desire to create yet another conflict. Quite the contrary, I hope in my own small way to bring some stability and peace to those who know not. Perhaps I'm preaching to the choir.

I sincerely hope so.

Stefan

[MLE]

Thank you Stefan! Excellent points..

[incubus]

I found this an interesting read, and agree with some of it, although myself have other thoughts on the community (pretty well known ones lol)

But that is neither here nor there. The fact is the VC as a whole does not work and never shall. As you said to many with an agenda.

As for offence I personally take none, I have not had an agenda for some time, nor plan to have one (besides 'trying' to keep Nox up for those who love it)

[RevDevon]

Agrees on points of this and though we all would like to strive for unity ..and as we have in the past tried for such , it shall never come to be soley for the fact of the inability to interact on the physical realm ... By only being able to interact via the internet 90 % of the time we all know that this allows one to be anyone they want reguardless .... Not having the ability to read ones body language along with whats being stated gives an extreme disadvantage..

[MLE]

I believe unity is possible for those who want it bad enough to not give up..

[Stefan]

I agree with you that the physical presence means more than words on a screen. I hope to bring that home here in Georgia in the near future.

[Preist]

on this i have a few things to say

i have watche the vc as a whole go down the tubes for a while and watched others from my own distance do there agendas and think no one noticed to how one post in one forum manipulated things in there own way to what they wanted and changing it from one to another under diferent names and thnk no one would notice but what is a body to do all these aliances are set up and yes well to put it bluntly most are sitting there to give them self nothing but a fuckig title and very few that actualy are enough in fact because most of the ones wh care are on nox is why i still keep my self afiliated here and left the rest

i help those who asked when i first started but now i stick to those who i see things in my only agend was to help but dont mostly as most wont help them selves and want to wollow in the i am a dpressed lil vampire senario when all tehy need is a good kick in the ass to relise there not vampire just love the scene and well are more life stylers than anything so again why i stick with nox and my own and seek to help through more stable means

i agree as a whole the community has went far from anything i remember even from when i came into the online community in 2000

i wouldnt say its a faliure on any elders behalf but when someone learns to build a site and then takes it he is the owner and suh he should be the elder of that forum and gets his answers from a google search what the hel are the rest of us sopposed to do

i took a leave of absence a while back as muh of what i was seeing in tthe VC was making me sick to the point if i didnt walk away i was going to end up in alot of fights and arguments
personaly i a, ;ost for answers in the coumunity

Preist

[Jeset]

Very good pionts. I agree with most, but I would like to think there are a few out there with good intentions for his or her people.

A few of you might remember about 10 months ago I re-serficed for a few weeks. during that time I had run into a few others of us, that didnt know about nox. Most of them didnt want to try it, just for the fact they didnt really agree with the whole forums scene. Anyways, we formed a short lived community. For some reason, they called me thier elder. In that respect I failed too. The reason being, wile I could help others with problems they had, I just couldnt help myself, couldnt take any of my own advice for some reason. I guess my point here is that a elder should also be able keep thier own life in check as well as help others with thiers.

-Jeset

[incubus]

As an elder I think we have all failed at some things, it is not about being perfect nor is it possible to never fail. It is if we keep trying and the integrity we keep not only elders but anyone as they try to regain what they failed at.

[Stefan]

I have to agree on various points. I think my promary point is that many Elders have used their title on-line to further their own cause. I cannot abide that.

One other small item: I am, and always will be, a grammar Nazi. Please remember this in your responses. If you cannot use proper grammar and syntax, I probably won't respond to you simply because you are making no logical sense.

S

[kyuuketsuki_kurai]

Part of the issue here, if you read carefully, is that there is absolutely no agreement on who is an Elder. At least there isn't online. When you work in your actual RL community, or just try to keep it within a single forum, you can have the "power" of an elder.
Trying to make it wide-spread doesn't really seem to work, as no one will agree on who is an elder. There is only one person that I have ever considered an elder, but would I expect that person to really have much power outside a small community? Not really. There is too much disagreement on what "real vampirism" is, and people will always have an agenda, leader or not.
Personally, I think what you're trying to do here is a great start, since it focuses in the real life, and it focuses in your local area. It's usually best to start that way rather than thinking huge right away. Trying to do things like this on a large usually only earns a person alot of distrust and make people alot of enemies. I won't say that real life is the only place it matters, since there are many people (like me) that won't set foot in a house, and probably won't have enough trust to open themselves up to something like that in real life, but in this case, it's probably a good idea.

[RKCoon]

Oh i gotta rant somewhat on this...


Yes, ive been a ghost for the last few months, but i have been online for well over 5 years total now, and i think in around two years with nox (in a number of its various board reincarnations ;) . i have a list prolly as long as my arm of people that i have either *thought* of as an elder or claimed the title for themselves -- ALL of whom have proven, if not dissapointing,total backstabbing bastards/bitches. nox, i must say, is the ONLY community that hasnt tried this bs with me, which in and of itself earns high regard from me. theres a number of people here with substantially greater experience in vampirism, the occult, etc than myself and i respect that - but the title "elder"? to me, personally, its something best left to holleywood, in my own oppinionated lil oppinion. the net, as Stefan said, has been a dual edged blade - both wonderful in allowing MANY of us to realise and figure out just what the Hades is going on with us -- but, at the same token, has forced us into the spotlight, far more so than myself and many others are comfortable with.


I do wanna toss out here tho - the idea of our communities coming to gether, in theory, sounds great - but from what ive seen, there is not a lot of interest from the masses in this. further, theres far too much "internal strife" for it to fly, currently - personally, theres too many out there thatd lay claim to what i am, and they aint, for this to fly terribly far -- too much static and noise, as it were. i am not opposed to attempting - just pessimistic of the result anytime soon.

anywho, ill get more into this later, when my brain is more in this gear -- net cafe and all.

[theoutsider]

I think the problem is not that the Elders failed, per se, but that the Elders _existed as Elders_. Now, do not misinterpret my meaning; there will always be leaders, people who have the knowledge and experience to be a pillar of strength to others. But the issue is one of power. Like it or not, when you assume (or are given) a title, it grants you power. This power comes in the form of others giving you respect without you earning it, in the form of your own self-image being that of supreme self-confidence, in the form of others looking to you as the leader of whatever group, regardless of what you are actually doing.

How do you fight this? I really don't know. Part of my thought is that people need to lead when they have the strength to, and not because they have the title to. In other words, the name Elder is meaningless; the actions that make one an Elder (or leader of any stripe) are transitory and fleeting. If you want to be a leader, you have to be a leader continuously and truthfully, or those you lead with become a fractious and disruptive flock.

People holding on to titles when they no longer deserve them has caused more stable and powerful communities than the VC to collapse.

[Eclecta]

Many of the community want to go back to the old ways. Especially those of the sanguine nature. It seems that psychic vampirism is being talked about alot lately, and not just on vamp forums, but amongst the mundanes, and in other places as well. Psi vampirism is on it's way to being mainstream, and as much as I'd like to be able to live my life in the open all the time, (I kinda do now since everyone just about everyone I know or associate with basically is in some way affilaited with the community except of course the random ppl I come in contact with everyday) I still realize there are pros as well as cons as to why we should or should not do this. I know we can't stop those who want to be public, but we can stop ourselves if we don't wish to be outed by returning to more secret ways of doing things. I don't mind it either way. As for myself, and AVA, we are mostly an offline house anyway. We do very little online, simplly because we find it easier to get together than to try to get online at home at the same time... And it's just more personal offline.

[RKCoon]

ok, im curious now - just what ARE the "old ways"? where might these be explained/laid out?

[Stefan]

A very good question. One that needs its own thread, which I'll be happy to do, probably in conjunction with ChadSang.

[darklin]

I’m not personally aware of any of the olds ways that have been mentioned so I can not comment on them but what I will comment on are my own views on present elders.
I have been apart of the VC for only a short time compared to some. Its been 2yrs all together but only a member of Nox for around 14months.

I have seen people go on power trip and have found this sickening but i have the grand ability of ignorance and use this to my full advantage when in a situation where BS and Drama are concerned.
Hence my reason for not drifting to far away from Nox and regarding it as a safe haven for me to be apart of and call home.
If there is something i can do to make things right without repercussions or persecution then I’m the first on to step forward.
I am not ignorant to those who genuinely need my help.
I feel saddened by people who cannot see the wrong they are doing by abusing there positions.
I feel there is hope though for those who seek it and for those who need it. You either want to help or you don’t there is no in-between to it.
And those who do abuse there stance within the VC will always be found out and exposed after all don’t a lot of us have the wonderful and cursed gift of empathy??
As far as Elders go in my own opinion are people who give themselves selflessly when they can and only have the best interests of the people whom they know look up to them.
I don’t care to mention names here because I thinks that its irrelevant .
I live in a small village and as far as I’m aware I’m alone so have never had to deal with this in a RL situation.
If there ever came a time when I had the chance to become involved within a local community in my area I would guess id play a very small part in it due to being mostly shy but I’m a loner and don’t work well in any type of group activity where there is a leader*Im an aries lol*, but then again I’ve never been in that situation so I really should hold my thoughts on that but what the hey.
Just my thoughts on this...they might be irrelevant and meaningless but i feel a little better for saying it anyways :D

[Jeset]

After reading all of these points, and all are very good pionts, what I think could fix a lot of issues within a grouping (i word it that way cause there are so many names for VC's at the smallist level) is that:

1. When a person becomes a elder for what ever reason in a group, that group should come up with and write down, perhapes create a "Group chapter" that it is part of: a list and explnation of what it means to be a elder and what his "powers" are with in that group and what kind and level of Repisentive power he has on the VC as a whole for that group. i.e. what or how much he can say for all of them on the whole as a group.

2. A list of restictions and actions that could get him removed from that Office.

In essence, I think there needs to be some sort of "rules" that can govern what they can or cannot do. In black and white, So that it is understood by all in that group

[incubus]

After reading all of these points, and all are very good pionts, what I think could fix a lot of issues within a grouping (i word it that way cause there are so many names for VC's at the smallist level) is that:

1. When a person becomes a elder for what ever reason in a group, that group should come up with and write down, perhapes create a "Group chapter" that it is part of: a list and explnation of what it means to be a elder and what his "powers" are with in that group and what kind and level of Repisentive power he has on the VC as a whole for that group. i.e. what or how much he can say for all of them on the whole as a group.

2. A list of restictions and actions that could get him removed from that Office.

In essence, I think there needs to be some sort of "rules" that can govern what they can or cannot do. In black and white, So that it is understood by all in that group
The only trouble with elder, is many are self proclaimed, which well anyone can stand up and say they are what ever. It takes no talent to open up a small group and claim eldership (seen it done many times)

Now myself I never wished to be ‘elder’ I just was trying to help a community, and people who needed a place to be themselves. After some time I finally accepted the title. Although these days I am not sure how much merit my elder title holds, no one comes to me for advice any more (besides a couple elders lol) I am for the most part just a tech here. So who knows?

But the elders thru out the VC are not regonized by all, there is no solid foundation in the VC, there is to many who have different views to ever come together in any unity. And many who claim they want unity only are after their own agenda (not all but many)

The VC is to big, to diverse, there are to many communities and to many leaders to ever come to a common ground. I mean could you see Nox changing just to suit someone else’s wants? Why would any change to suit Nox’s ? And in the end it stays divided.

[Jeset]

I wasnt meaning a common set of rules for all elders, just set of guide lines within and only for each house or coven or what ever they wish it to be called. Not every one would have the same rules. Sorry for the confusion.

[darkangel5778]

as a fledgling, I really cannot say how the VC has gone downhill or if it will continue to do so, however I will say this...........the irresponsibility of the individuals of the VC are no one's fault but their own. They made life choices that were destructive and must answer for them. I firmly believe that one must account for one's own sins and no one elses. While you may be an elder, your responsibility (going from a teacher student perspecitve here) is to guide, not lead ; to show the path of knowledge, not to step alongside ; to live as an example, not to heave the burdens of other's mistakes on your shoulders. So in my opinion, so long as you have done these, you have done everything in your power to ensure the future.

[ChadSang]

I hope this helps the newbies. It's a good post

[RKCoon]

ive been around 5 years myself, and while icant speak in regards to any real lifecommunities, i can speak in regards to a number of online communities - most all of them have gone right to Hades ina handbasket. Nox, fortuneately, has avoided most of that -- despite its bad days where we dunno where tis gonna be tomorrow. ;) THo i do say, it doesnt solely fall to "elders" but to ALL of us with experience in the vamp communities to guide, teach and aide those who are still learning, and help them steer clear of the bullshit and crap that goes on. i also say that those of us thatve been around and know the game ,as it were, also havethe responsibility to at least try and put something of a lid on the idiots out there, or at the very least, to show thatthey are the loony ones, and not us.

[theoutsider]

I think that you understand the situation better than most, RK.

Thing of it is, to me the position of Elder is not a useful one. It is not useful in as much as anyone wo is doing as you say, upholding the sanity and stability of your community is fufilling the role of this position and therefore does not need the position to do it. Anyone who needs the title to do the job is not worthy of the job, and anyone who has the title and is not doing the job is hurting the whole community.

So, if you don't need to have people in that position to get the job done, and the people who are in that position who are not fulfilling their obligations are actively hurting the community, why bother with that position to begin with? It doesn't make sense to this outsider.

[Stefan]

Speaking as one who has railed about the same thing, not much makes sense at the moment...but then again I'm still rewiring my brain, so it may take some time to get back in the groove...or...maybe I already am.

But on many points, I agree.

[RKCoon]

Ive been called an "elder" by more than a few people - some of whom have been around a lot longer than i have. screw that noise - i may make a LOT of noise on occasion, and occasionally have to kick a few asses, but im no elder, nor do i want it. if i have to lead, fine, that i can handle, but screw the old title.

[Stefan]

The title once was one of respect; in these days the "elders" have besmirched that quite a bit. There's a few of us left that hold the title a little higher. It's more than a leader, it's like being a parent. There's joy and pain involved. There's also a lot of responsibility, which many elders do not take on as they have only themselves or their "reputation" to think of.

While it may be antiquated, I am proud to be one. Call me old fashioned...

[ChadSang]

Speaking as one who has railed about the same thing, not much makes sense at the moment...but then again I'm still rewiring my brain, so it may take some time to get back in the groove...or...maybe I already am.

But on many points, I agree.

I agree with you Stefan. In teling my story, I would imagine that a lot of our members have not been educated as to the ways of others who have that title when they say there has been conflict, It's brought some long forgotten incidents from the past that I wasn't expecting. Incidently, I was given the title ELDER not by me but who knowsto me by the powers that be on here I guess because I am the oldest on here and have been an active vampire almost from birth.

[RKCoon]

Well, Untill I personally see where/when this happened, I cant say terribly much on that, CS. So please, continue, Im eager to see the conclusion of this story.

[theoutsider]

The title once was one of respect; in these days the "elders" have besmirched that quite a bit. There's a few of us left that hold the title a little higher. It's more than a leader, it's like being a parent. There's joy and pain involved. There's also a lot of responsibility, which many elders do not take on as they have only themselves or their "reputation" to think of.

While it may be antiquated, I am proud to be one. Call me old fashioned...

My thoughts are that the title itself is pointless.

Here's my best example. There is a young boy that I have living with me. I talk care of him, make sure he's fed, clothed, and morally and mentally upright and strong. He's my godson, even though I do not have that title. I know what I need to do, and I do it. Nobody said "You are this child's godfather, take care of him and make sure he is raised right". Nobody needed to. I just did it.

In another case, there is a young boy that I have not seen in many years. His parents live in the same city as me, but we have grown apart. Even when he was little, I didn't watch over him to prevent his parents from doing stupid things as a godfather should. I was this childs' godfather. I had been named his godfather on the day of his birth, and confirmed as such when he was baptized.

In the first case, the title was not needed; I knew what my responsibilities were, and I did them. I was (and am), in all effects, as godfatherly a figure as will ever exist in that childs life, and he's much better off because of it. In the second case, I was not that childs' godfather, no matter what the offical record says. I never did anything to deserve the title, and in not fulfilling those duties, I took from him what he deserved.

The title of Elder is the same thing. If you are doing the job, you don't need to be called it to keep doing it. You know what is needed, and you feel happy doing it. On the other hand, by taking that title when you don't deserve it, you are doing damage to the community that you are part of.

And the reason I was willing to take the title of godfather to a boy that I shouldn't have? Pride. It's the same failing that ends up corrupting every elder I've ever run into. Anyone who is proud of what they are called will hold onto it long after they should. And therein lies the danger in bestowing titles in the first place...

I'd hate to be called an Elder. Not because I'd hate to have that role; as you've said, it's a valuable role to uphold, and a useful place in a community. I'd hate to be called it because it would mean someone felt I needed the title to continue, I needed to be trapped by those words.

[Stefan]

Ah...so, Outsider, you're now saying I'm full of pride and vanity? I must say, without sounding too indignant, that I take that as a personal insult. We'll just leave it at that.

[Gabriel]

I see I'm going to have a lot of reading on Nox before I catch up with everyone. :) But alas I enjoy it so no harm. ;)

i took a leave of absence a while back as muh of what i was seeing in tthe VC was making me sick to the point if i didn’t walk away i was going to end up in alot of fights and arguments. - Priest

As I took my absence for the same reasons.

In my perspective, An elder isn't someone whom applies the title to themselves at all. It's when others call the individual behind their back and when the person being called it won't admit to. One simple individual cannot give self title ship in regards to such things. Over the years I've seen even 17 year olds or even older open a house just to obtain in their mind a title which would grant them power over others. "Hi my name is Lord Biscuit. I just opened House tofu. I am now Elder Biscuit. Why won't other elder's respect me?" Then they run off and make a council of elders with other 17 or other year old 'no offense' rejects and deem it well.

I've found more times out of not this is where a lot of drama comes in with the community and error that usually ends with channel 6 news.

To reiterate my point, how can someone personally claim themselves to be an elder without at least a good percentage standing behind the remark at all? Doesn't self proclamation of eldership mean they them self are giving a statement of power over others when it is the peoples right or responsibility to allow application of the name?

As for the topic of unity. In my opinion unity will never happen. When people say unity to my mind I see "Absence of Diversity, a uniformity". Well to be truthful I'm for one not willing to give up my freedom of religion, nor am I willing to serve a hierarchy, nor am I willing to follow a dress code, nor am I willing to conform to any of you so that I may be just like you. That would destroy individual thought, freedom's left and right. IE: Rk would have to stop being an ass when those random times came for him to boot some head.

I'm sure RK wouldn't give that up, nor would any. What the community CAN strive for however is a global cooperation. "Yeah, I really don't like you but, well it is possible for me to work with you on this strudel dish." We do it every day at our jobs. "I hate my co-worker." Yet we still have to work with them. Once individuals start seeing a different perspective about community not being a rat race to make it to a television program or to hold power or to be the most famous in all of the community and strive for making a community that maybe they themselves won't be embarrassed to be a part of. Then maybe we could finally see real cooperation. Not the type of a hierarchy or council, or rigid structure though.

As per laws of how an elder can be removed from 'eldership' Simple if they break their own house/self implied conduct they get booted. Elders shouldn't be held any higher than the most simple individual. The title should show however an ability to teach others and lead as an example that is absolutely flawed. It's our nature. This is why I consider myself to only be a founder. Seems much easier and less dramatic to say. :) A founder/Elder always has to answer to those around them. Even in a hierarchy type situation.

Sorry for the HUGE post, I was just trying to express my opinions on four pages worth of others posts without cheating to make my post count go up. :P

-Gabriel

http://www.losthaven.org/images/lhbannergabe.jpg

[theoutsider]

Ah...so, Outsider, you're now saying I'm full of pride and vanity? I must say, without sounding too indignant, that I take that as a personal insult. We'll just leave it at that.

Take it as you want to. In the end, it's not addressed to you. Not alone, anyway. (And, btw, I never even mentioned vanity. I don't think it has anything to do with this at all...)

It's addressed to the title. And the difference between the title and the person is what is important to the community. AND that's all I'm saying.

Do you need the title to be who you are, to help the community you are a part of? Do you need to be trapped in that role by the words? Or, as I said before, are you like me in the first example I used:

I knew what my responsibilities were, and I did them. I was (and am), in all effects, as godfatherly a figure as will ever exist in that childs life, and he's much better off because of it.


You are full of pride. It's not the only thing you're full of, though. You're also full of responsibility and honour. The problem is I've seen pride, even the smallest amount, overcome honour and responsibility, in time, every time. Titles breed pride, and pride kills communities.

That's why I've always said that the titles of the Old Ways were a major constituent in the fall of the Old Ways.

Take it as an insult against yourself, Stefan, if you must. It's not meant as such; I don't feel it's worth my time to insult individuals. I never do. I just see things as only an outsider can, and my job is to let you know what I see.

[Stefan]

My comment was very tongue-in-cheek.

However, I agree on several points.

I've said all I have to say in this particular thread; that's not me being a martyr or anything like that. I just feel that the concept and thread has run it's course and has become very tiring.

S

[Alyushia]

As for the topic of unity. In my opinion unity will never happen. When people say unity to my mind I see "Absence of Diversity, a uniformity". Well to be truthful I'm for one not willing to give up my freedom of religion, nor am I willing to serve a hierarchy, nor am I willing to follow a dress code, nor am I willing to conform to any of you so that I may be just like you. That would destroy individual thought, freedom's left and right. IE: Rk would have to stop being an ass when those random times came for him to boot some head.

I'm sure RK wouldn't give that up, nor would any. What the community CAN strive for however is a global cooperation. "Yeah, I really don't like you but, well it is possible for me to work with you on this strudel dish." We do it every day at our jobs. "I hate my co-worker." Yet we still have to work with them. Once individuals start seeing a different perspective about community not being a rat race to make it to a television program or to hold power or to be the most famous in all of the community and strive for making a community that maybe they themselves won't be embarrassed to be a part of. Then maybe we could finally see real cooperation. Not the type of a hierarchy or council, or rigid structure though.

-Gabriel

http://www.losthaven.org/images/lhbannergabe.jpg

*stands and applauds your comments*
I must say I completely agree with the comments you made regarding diversity.
It baffles me sometimes, how so called adults can have so little tolerance for differing opinions and personalities.
What is wrong with agreeing to disagree, or with debating like adults without all of the drama? Disagreeing with someone doesn't necessarily equal drama (at least it doesn't have to if the people involved are grownups).
I often have seen "Elders" of communities actually feeding the inoterance and childish behavior.

[RKCoon]

I love how im always the first name that comes up when either being an ass or kicking some ass comes up. lmfao!

[stainless]

you LOVE it!!

How about we all just let sleeping (or dozing anyway) Pretentions lie and agree that everyone is right.

except me.

I'm just a catalyst for annoyance in a comedic way.

Here's Tom with the weather!


Think most of the points relating to attitude have been covered on other threads as well to be honest, It's nice to hear people's opinions tho, without preaching and black cating.

Now, hand over your chocolate else the thread gets it! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/steelrat/smilewar/gunslinger.gif

[Alyushia]

Never!! Chocolate is MINE!!

[Gabriel]

It's only because I love you Rk. :P


But..... I wanted to eat my cookie :( Do I get something in return? *Offers up his cookie*

[RKCoon]

I do have to say.... ive yet to have ANYone explain to me waht the hell the "old ways" are...

[Gabriel]

Well rk see in the "OLD ways" we used to not be able to type in really cool forums. We'd send carrier pigeons with posts.. sometimes the pigeon would be killed. This was called locking a thread. Other times the pigeon would return with defication. This was called getting banned.
sometimes the pigeon was shot mid flight. That would be Derailing a thread.

Sorry had a bit of silly in me ;p

[Alyushia]

It's only because I love you Rk. :P


But..... I wanted to eat my cookie :( Do I get something in return? *Offers up his cookie*
Depends on what you have in mind. lol

[darklin]

I believe this thread has run its course. If there’s nothing else anyone has to add in reference to the titled subject then take your cookies and your chocolate and run along to the off topic section please ;)

[RevDevon]

RK ... the "Old Ways " shouldn't have to be explained .. but I will say that many of the old ways should still be respected and can be intertwined with the new ..

[stainless]

Rock on Rev! You crowdsurf on a sea of respect!

[darklin]

This can come up in everyday issues not just the VC.
My granddad bless him used to always say “The new generation hold little if no respect for there elders” I agree with him because I fear for my sons future.
I lay in bed at night worrying about what life will be like for him when he’s 18 and so on.
Change is a good thing but when there’s a lack of respect for those changes then it breeds drama because some people just cant comprehend how normal those things were back then.
Thing were different back in the day for everyone from those of you that have been around the VC for many years to the price of a regular 3 bedroom house today.
I’m not demeaning the VC by that statement I’m just saying that everything changes.
God i remember when you could leave all the windows and your front door open in the summer and get on with the house work without worrying about some Arsshole invading your home.
When children were safe to play out the front of the house without fear of some sick pervert snatching them.
As things change we need to learn to respect those changes and evolve with them by doing what is best for everyone involved on all levels.

Darklin..

[Alyushia]

I think a big part of the issue that some have with elders stems from the many self proclaimed "Elders" that have popped up in the community. So many have been people that either know very little about the subject, or are simply power seekers.
This gives the true Elders a bad name in a way. It tends to make some of us very suspicious and has unfortunately soured the term in many of our minds.
This is not exclusive to the vampire community. I have seen it in the Native American community as well.

[Savion]

Would it not be true elders are those who have lived with the knowledge of their vampirism long before the invent of the internet? Those who learned by trial and error rather than by recieving answers at a message board? Those who were aware and developed techinics for survival and their general health without assistance online. At best lucky if there was another like them close by to share the learning experience? Those whom, upon finally coming to a message board, had actual experience rather than second hand information to share?

Just a few points to ponder...

[RKCoon]

Uh, Rev? I grew up under a rock in the middle of a frozen winter wonderland, what the Hades would i know of "Old ways" when i was the only one like me out there? seriously, they SHOULD be explained, in detail, so all can see what it is and decide for ourselves weather its worth dealing with or not. Like i said before - i do NOT know exactly what they are, and id like to know them.

[theoutsider]

:) That's the essence of the "new ways", RK. Freedom, in all forms: freedom of information, freedom of choice, freedom to have the values you wish.

[darkangel5778]

I have seen several good points made that I happen to agree with, several points that I do not (some I view as bad or invalid points or some are good I just don't hold that view myself) and I can say a few things
one: perhaps the "old ways" need to be reveiwed by those that need to perhaps updated with the times that are indeed changing making some things outdated or even obsolete
two: each of us has our own personal view on what an elder is............leave it at that
three: this thread is getting a bit long and a bit personal for many of us so.......
(and yes I feel like being a smart aleck) ~takes out a gun shoots the perverbial carrier pidgeon and buries it to rest~ :dvlish: :bat:

[Merticus]

Tend to agree this thread has seen its "day"... and to think I never even chimed in on the subject until now! I'll be very brief as it's not a favored topic of mine to begin with...

I believe the at times illusive "old ways" do have merit taken on face value but in order for them to be either respected or adhered to with the current climate of our Community, extensive tweaking would be required. Pardon me for not indulging RK or others on the litany of the "old ways", as I feel such would best be left to the original author of this thread. I've never had much use for titles but neither seek to obtain one nor reject them if given. I tend to measure those in this Community by what they give of themselves locally, to those who look to them for guidance, and what's contributed by them to the greater online Community. Elders or leaders may transition in and out of this Community but the legacy of their works and example they set for others is the source from whence new elders/leaders rise to fill the gap.

[stainless]

How old can an elder be anyway? realistically vampire terminology hasn't been around that long so.....

Obviously peopl have always had thoughts, needs and cravings like the VC but it's only been popularised recently so how could there be Elders, old ways or anything? Or how old IS and elder, or is it just a 'been around the longest' or 'know the most' thing? If so, am I my own Elder? cos no-one knows my path better than me! Or maybe Cama, she's spookily psychic...

I respect EVERYONE's views and the older and/ or more knowledgable people I really look up to, but I seem to have missed something....

I am also REeeeeeEEEEEally not putting 'elders' pown, or picking a fight, I've read this thread and I'm still a little confused tho, What Am I missing guys? Help?!

[Lauren]

In the past weeks I've seen several discussions on what is wrong with our community. It seems so easy to place the blame on elders or leaders, to the level that I am even seeing the elders blaming other elder's views and methods. Of course some of the problem is with the elders, but one may rest assured, responsibility is to be had by the community members also. I will freely and fully admit I'm fairly new to the vampire community but I do have experience with social dynamics which I believe work in any society.

So what makes a strong society? That would be when all members of the society recognize, are proficient at, take responsibility for, and carry out their duties, both to themselves and to the betterment of the society as a whole. A strong society is one where all members (elders being included as a member) work together for the good of the entire community.

I have seen the words "society" and "community" bandied about, and in most cases, what is being said should be called a society is indeed a community, at best, and more directly, a private home, or private club. We say we want to work for society, but by our proclaimation and actions, we are focused solely on the the single unit and very little that effects us outside these "halls". When this happens, failure is eventual, if not immenent.

Elders or Leaders are important to any society. They keep order, they make and enforce rules, and while no one likes rules they're needed, they give us knowledge and wisdom, and direction, and even discipline and even to those who act as though they've got the bull by the horns, they provide a sense of safety and protection.

"Elders" are more than people who know how to run their own "home" or "club". Sure, those elders are needed also, but in order for a society to thrive, each of those private "homes" need to consider how things outside of the home will effect them. The Elders or leaders are those who have experienced their own community and, indeed, their own society enough to know and understand the effects and ramifications that events, public opinion, and behaviors others of our society, and those within our own home will have upon us. Elders need to know when to act on a problem, and need to know when acting would cause greater harm. The need knowlege, and wisdom in areas that effect their community. It is not reasonable or rational to believe that each elder will have all of the answers or understand each aspect, but in those cases, it is up to the Elder to seek that knowledge from one who does have experience in that arena and to ask councel. Good Leaders or Elders have several others who, while not being considered elders themselves, have valuable ideas and knowledge to assist the leader. Elders are more than those who have "been around the block" and who know much of what there is to know about the beliefs and abilities and unique qualities of their group. A leader has to be able to see how outside forces, beliefs and behaviors will effect their society as a whole and they have to be able to take action if any of these forces, beliefs or behaviors threaten to harm the society either now, or later through perpetuating events. A leader will or should know when taking action brings no other benefit than to stir emotions, make noise, or have no effect other than inciting other societies or their own, and knowing when making a statement or a decree, or taking an action, is needed to prevent immediate harm to the community or society, or when the problem may even cause longer term problems and take action.

Elders or leaders must be mindful of the collective member's needs and goals. A leader will only be able to lead, or guide, when those s/he wishes to guide are willing to follow. The second your community loses respect for you, or comes to believe you do not have the community's best interest, or thinks you are ineffective, your tenure as an elder or leader is in jeopardy. There will always be more members than leaders, and if the majority decides you are not able to help their cause, your voice will be silenced, and soon you will be a fond memory.

Elders are those who have seen and understand how personal interactions, though they cause much upheaval between the individuals and their friends, should be handled amonst those individuals. They have learned that to do otherwise breeds melodrama, brings no lasting benefits to the society and can, in truth, cause more misunderstandings and misinformation. On the other hand, the elders must know that when the issues at hand, have more far-reaching effects, then they need to have the strength and courage and initiative to deal with the problem in a way as to create the least "melodrama" make their actions firm, direct, and with as little emotional and argumentative effect, and be able to deal with the short-term upheaval that comes with change or resistance. The elder must have the character to be able to handle criticism and disagreement regarding their action and know that while there may be some immediate discontent, the cumulative effects out-weigh immediate and temporary discord and stand by their decision. They need to be able to take that criticism, without becoming argumentative or sensitive about the criticism. Most often the criticism is there only because of the community's fear or misunderstanding and is not a direct disapproval of the elder.

One of the harder jobs an elder needs to be able to effectively carry out, is to monitor other elders, be it, in their own community or in the society as a whole. Young community members look up to these elders also. When a young one is looking for someone to model after, or from which to learn, these elders and their communities will be the first places they seek. When older members are seeking wisdom and growth, they will look for these elders. It is irrational to think that some of them will not make their first stop at another elder's home, and once there, look no further. Since these seekers believe this elder is supported and agreed upon and sanctioned by other elders elsewhere, they are likely to believe what they learn from the elder, and form opinions and beliefs under their teaching. An elder must be able to say they do not support another elder, or in the least say, they suggest caution when accepting their beliefs, IF the other elder could in some way be damaging the society as a whole. The reputations and acceptance of our society is contingent upon the beliefs others have of us, and can either strengthen us or damage us and the elders must be able and willing to take actions when needed to further the goals of the society.

Elders are those who can recognize and understand the agendas, feelings, tolerances, goals and effects OTHER societies will have on our society. Whether we like it or not, and whether we want it to be so or not, other societies will have an effect on ours. They can either advance our cause, or they can put stumbling blocks in our way. If a society outside of ours, joins with another society unrelated to ours, they can effect us either negatively or positively. Our leaders need to know and accept that we cannot, no matter how much we wish it, exclude ourselves from world opinion and tolerances. It's said "no man is an island" and it is also true that no society is an island either. A good Elder will have a finger on the pulse of other societal views and keep them in mind when making decisions that will either reinforce, or diminish these opinions of our society. This is all part of protecting and advancing our own society.

Finally, our elders are those who WANT to be elders. I have seen many who are considered elders, who claim elderhood, who go on to say repeatedly "I dont want to be an elder". If this is the case, then that individual should not be an elder, nor claim to be one. It is a great honor to be considered an elder, and gives one recognition and respect for their achievements, and gives them some sense of control, but if that elder does not want to accept the responsibilities of an elder, that elder does more harm to the community than s/he does help. Some elders who have come to feel this way decide they want to be elders only in their own closed in box, in their own little corner and where they can have complete control and not deal with the challenges of other opinion. That is noble IF that elder recognizes that they still must keep aprised of other elder activity and goals and also to share and plan with those other elders. Otherwise "act locally and think globally" is mere words and utter bullshit. Without the communication of local elders, all that will be had is separate localities doing their own thing, while no one knows what the other is doing. There is no unity in this, no solidarity, massive confusion, and in many cases, contradiction.

Elders need to consider all these responsibilities, and make an honest decision as to whether this is what they want to do, or even, can do. Our elders are those who hold our society in their hands, they shape it, mold it, and keep it heading in the direction it should go. Otherwise, our elders are merely figure-heads, and are more than ineffectual... they're destructive.


"Any community's arm of force - military, police, security - needs people in it who can do neccesary evil, and yet not be made evil by it. To do only the necessary and no more. To constantly question the assumptions, to stop the slide into atrocity." -- Lois McMaster Bujold

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)


... and with that said, we need to focus on the members of the society. (didn't think I'd leave you out, did you?) :)

In many societies and, in this one, in particular, most of us have been without guidance or instruction. There just wasn't any. We learned to fly by the seat of our pants and many of us learned we're damned resourceful on our own. Many of us have developed an "I dont need anyone" attitude. This attitude may have served us at one time, and still may to an extent, but we now need to add some balance. Fact is, if you're here you're looking for something whether it be companionship, friendship or just understanding. You may be receiving more than you came for. Even with all you learned on your own, you may be learning more things that you did not learn on your own.

Regardless, you're receiving the support of a group, who now is fighting on the behalf of everyone like you--which will benefit you also. Because of this, you, in time will benefit from more tolerance in society as a whole, not just this one, which will make your life much easier. IF you're going to benefit from the group, you need to support the group. You may not always agree, you need not devote your life to the group, you need not even bow down to the elders, but you do need to, if you cannot contribute, at least, not tear it down or try to diminish it. If your attitude is truly that you do not need anyone to show you anything, or that you do not need anyone to give you more to learn from, then you might be best off on your own.

Members of a community will not always agree with a leader's decision. Believe me, when making these decisions, and trying to consider what's best for the group as a whole, compared to the effects, benefits and detriment that might be caused individuals, these are not easy decisions to make. Talk to your elders. Sometimes there is no good choice for them to make, and they have to choose "the lesser of two evils". Discuss with them your thoughts and feelings. A good elder will listen and take what you say into consideration. Give them information to help them make the decision. Then, unless the decision is blatantly dangerous or detrimental, give it a chance and try to make it work within the boundaries of the ruling. Keep in mind, that if the decision proves to have been the wrong one, it can be changed! Elders are not perfect, nor should we expect them to be. But WE have put them in the position of leadership by our respect of them, so remember they're still the same person you respect, and put your back into trying to give it a shot. Who knows? You might find after a bit, you were wrong. Stranger things HAVE happened! :)

Keep things in perspective. These elders or even other members, though they have the experience and knowledge, are not as stongly knowledgable in all areas. If you have knowledge in an area that can help them, share it with them. However, keep in mind these leaders have already proven to be intelligent and to have some level of wisdom, so it wouldn't likely benefit you to go in guns a blazing demanding they do your bidding, or making threats of ominous potential apocolyptic destruction if they do not listen to you. Tell them calmly what you've observed, if you've seen it before, tell them what outcome you found. Speak to them with respect and intelligence. I guarantee they will accept your ideas much more readily than if you go in forcefully.

As a member, you should keep yourself up to date on what's happening, changing and developing in your community. YOU, not the elders, are the foundation of the community. I believe the elders to be the backbone, but you are the foundation. It's your responsibility to uphold the community, if someone or some group within your community needs support, you can help in that capacity. We're the workers... the ones who make it happen. The elders have no one to lead if there is no one who wants to be led or wants to get involved. We also have the responsibility to keep learning. Trust me, no one here knows everything, and if you happen to know everything, you won't for long, because the world we live in is changing. You may have all the answers, but keep on your toes, because the questions are changing every day and we need to be able and ready to change with them.

Respect. We need to have respect for, not only our elders, but for ourselves and each other. I do not mean by respect, that we have to bow down, kiss ass, or sacrifice the fatted calf on the alter in homage to anyone, but we do have to consider each person, what they might need at the moment, and what might benefit us all in the long term.

Team work. We need to work together. If we're all working in different directions, all thinking and working only on what matters to us, and the rest be damned, we're eventually going to make a huge mess. Someone doing one thing will hinder what you're doing, and vice versa. There is a wise saying we need to keep in mind... "A house divided against itself, will surely fall".

We all have to move beyond this attitude of separatism. No society should be Elders vs. Members. We all have our own strengths and positions and jobs, and none is more important than the other... and neither can exist without the other. I think before we think about unity in society, we need to first focus on unity within our own communities.

Beyond all of that, There will be times when life and the world around us changes to the point that our old ways of dealing with things, just don't work, or even worse, hinder our progress. In these times especially, we all need to pull together and figure out what we want to acheive, and then make a plan of how to acheive it. We will never get anywhere without a plan and no society can succeed in reaching a goal unless all involved share that goal.

[Merticus]

Bravo! Very well expressed - hopefully others will take these words to heart.

[ChadSang]

I would think at least one has to be an elder to keep it's force of opinion and focus. As for myself, I was given the term VC Elder by one of the higher powers that be. I did not go aroud begging to be an Elder. As a matter of fact that requires knowledge and lots of years under their belt. One person who posted, says there is no use to have elders. I have to disagree some of the posts in this thread, but I try not to get in here and disagree with every single person. In the "old school" of posters, please learn all you can if you can find an Elder who is agrreeable Many pwepole post mistakes and act like they want to do away from Elders, but in my opinion that is so wrong.