Vampire Elitism Offshoot: Who is better?

[Nochtal]

Who is better, what is better? Vampires are elite to humans! Well wait a sec? Then why are we dependant on life energy to survive and stay well? To have our power? Humans don't! They sustain their own level of life energy/bio energy fields! Yes they are smaller, and capable of less when untrained, but those who take upon the path of the witch or wizard become power house beacons of flooding energies and great control and power! Become like us and stronger than us in many ways! But alas! We have that capability as well! We too can take upon the paths of magic and generate large amounts of this spiritual presence. But alas, we still have the holes in our own fields that make it to where we require to feed upon life energy in the first place! But humans do not have the higher innate opening of the third eye! Of the psychic senses. So alas, here we are the question again. Who is better?

WHO IS THE ELITE!?

The elite has nothing to do with it! It has to do upon individual basis. This is the quote from one of the posts I have in the Vampire Elitism thread that sparked this thread:

"As far as better cause I'm a vamp, well, I'm not really techniqally a vamp, Im a kagliph. Tzentzrel: Kagliph Dominus of the Nine Sages. I am who and what I am for a job so to say. Not to be better or worse. I simply have a direct link to the dark, life and death energies, and neutral views, acts, and ways of percieving things. Just as each kin has what they are in existance for. Not one better than the other, just a different focus on what part of reality they have a natural link and access to/over. It is in how it is used, and personal training."

As far as my system speaks of, there are 9 major races. Well, Nine Sages, or rulers of the species. 8 Races, and the ninth, the Ogre Sage. Or the Sage that is over all others that do not fit in one of the Eight. The Eight are Human, Elven, Kagliph (which vampires fall under, and derive from, so as far as elites in vampires go, it is the Kagliph that are the elite, by tech.) Salamander, Uldine, Sylph, Gnome, and Fae. Each of these species has the Sage. And the sages come down and inhabit a body to do their works here in the Gaia dimension. Only 3 Sages are in the same plane of existance at a time. Gob is the Sage or elemental ruler of the Gnomes (thus goblins, any follower of Gob) Merlin was the last enbodyment of the Sage of Mankind, and Rasputin was an enbodyment of the Sage of Kagliphs, as was Lao Tzu, and Sun Tzu. As for what we are, stating more about ~(first name)~ Rasputin Tzentzrel seems more to make sense, as he is also one of the three Sages here in Gaia at this time. The other two are the Sages of the Sylphs and Ogre. They have their true name, which is never spoken or known outside of the Nine. They take on other names with each embodiement. Nox/Nochtal is the first embodiement name of the Sage of Kagliphs. Actually in seeing if any new information on it ever popped up on the web was how I found this site! I thought it very interesting indead (pun intended there).

But to get back onto topic directly here! (sorry I get sidetracked and go down twisty roads every so often, happens when you have a lot of information to share). Each species exists for a reason, and has rulership directly over certain aspects of existance. Thus why all are needed. Here is another aspect that confuses people. Yes in other plans of existance you can look at the physical appearance of one and see the differant races, but not here on Gaia. Here, the differances are within the soul. Within the spiritual being that is the true person inside the 'human' body. Those who can see souls, auras, or sense such things, can see the what race one is, if they know what to look for. It is not a physical difference, but a spiritual difference. So if it is this way, and not physical, how can one say that one is elite over the other?! Is the condition of the body only that in which you put it? Take care of it or not?! So if we start of by establishing that the difference is thusly only spiritual, the first contendance for the elite species, is already constricted by the fact that we are all prehibited by the same cage.

The next aspect is, that the process of connecting with this body takes time, and the fact that even if the person is, I'll be blunt here, an immortal walker like myself, one who never truely dies, but when the body is destroyed or ceases to live we stand there and just walk off, and find another body. I tend to find a still born child and track it. If by the time it leaves the womb a soul has not entered it, I will enter it. thus is how I attained my currant body, after my last one was, well, rather nastily destroyed..... (I DON'T LIKE SWIMMING! And I DON'T LIKE ICE!, and I'm no longer big on sweets or cookies!) Mind you, just like any memory, the farther back it is in time, the more likely you are to forget it. I remember a lot of events I've experianced in the back, but not perfectly. And sometimes I don't remember when it happened in the timeline. As I was, even if the person is, the body still has to develop, even if the soul can speak, the body needs to learn, develop, and grow. ~UM! Just got sidetracked! wife is playing around on my laptop playing Oblivion....She has questions so I'm going to go help her. But this should be enough to start the topic.



Nochtal.
Kagliph Dominus of the Nine Sages.

P.S. I hope there is another on here who knows this stuff and can help with this topic.

[Liquidess_Shade]

I would like to have more refrences (websites,books, articles, tablets, whatever) That outline your belief system in more detail.

Specificlly the claims on Tzu, and any other well known person that you listed in your above post.

I would further like it if you would please explain your definitions regarding the 8 races that you listed above.

[Preist]

Unfortunatly LS i dont thik you will find tablets or written info i think these terms are of Nochtals workings i have look around online and all refrences to "Kagliph" are all in refrence to nochtal him self

so were does it come from weres the beginers refrence to it all

PLEASE RESPOND nochtal i dont doubt your ability i have read your posts but i do have issues with systems coming out the blue and nothing reating to it anywere in refrence or system writtings theres more to why i am asking but thats something for private convo ............

Preist

[RKCoon]

I have to agree on this one -- ive never heard of most any of these terms either - and while im not THE most traveled outthere, i do have a fair idea of what is out there. so please, do clarify and enlighten. :)

[Liquidess_Shade]

I would further like to know if that is your avatar in your profile. Never known of a Military Intel to have hair that long.

[Nochtal]

One, that is a pic from right before I joined. My hair is extremly short right now! I can show you a recent pic if you'd like when I get the chance to get one online. And as far as my system goes. It is something I was taught. And no, I havn't been able to find refrences to it in writting, but every so often I do come accross another who knows it. Techniqually it is not suppossed to be talked about, but I talked to my master and asked if that could be breached, so I pretty much am the poster boy so to say to bring out this belief system that has been constricted very tightly to family tradition.

This is how many traditions come out to be. Wicca did it after it was established shortly afterwards, and christianity did it. Why does it surprise you that there is a family tradition that someone is trying to release out there so it is known of. The only writtings I've ever read on them are hand written and are never published. I hope to change that as well someday.
I believe very strongly in my system, but the system is also very ecclectic.

Plus I will also admit, as far as some of the minor terms go. I may have them wrong, or it may be the fact of deception. It could be taught to me that way and it very well could be something taught elsewhere by a different name. Almost the very codex of this tradition can be found in the Tao Teh Ching. Probably done to protect it and keep it hidden.

Do you think this is a hopeless cause? If you all do, then your prob right. But if you were raised with a family tradition and it works, and as you grow you don't find it anywhere else but the family, would you not want to release it and let it out there? or would you just hold it in and say some other cover tradition to others?

But please don't let that detract from the topic. Those are not posted to be THIS IS HOW! Those are posted to reveal my view on elitism and why it cannot be due to kinship. This thread is a here to discuss various views on the topic. And I simply started by posting my view.

Also I have not been able to find some of the stuff you all talk about either. Could be where your looking. Also, there prob is a more modern word for kagliph. I just don't happen to know that corralation. Prob just refed to be a hybrid now days. But Kagliph from what I was taught is an extremly old word that was used in refrence to them.

[Liquidess_Shade]

I would like to have more refrences ...

Specificlly the claims on Tzu, and any other well known person that you listed in your above post.

I would further like it if you would please explain your definitions regarding the 8 races that you listed above.

I would like those addressed please.

[Savion]

Merlin was the last enbodyment of the Sage of Mankind, and Rasputin was an enbodyment of the Sage of Kagliphs, as was Lao Tzu, and Sun Tzu. As for what we are, stating more about ~(first name)~ Rasputin Tzentzrel seems more to make sense, as he is also one of the three Sages here in Gaia at this time.

I would like for you to elaborate here. I would also like to see you explain Kagliphs further. Since you claim Rasputin one of these I would like further explaination of the word. The closest to it I am aware of is kaliph, which is a civil leader of a Muslim state considered to represent Allah on Earth. I normally pride myself on my mastery of the language but you use terms completely foreign and unaccessible.

"Tzentzrel" what is this and why would it make more sense? Dominus is a title of sovereignty. Exactly how did you come about such a title? Kaliph and Dominus imply almost the same thing. A Kaliph would be considered a sovereign as well. I am most curious and have many more questions regarding this.

[Camazotz]

It's interesting to hear of personal systems and such... as a Chaoite, I guess I'm used to people having ways that are entirely their own, but we don't tend to have them linked through to historical figures etc, they're just the particular tools needed to do any one thing at any one point in time and then when a system/belief becomes redundant we easily move through to something else.

From what you've said, this is a family system? Family as in blood relatives, or a spiritual family?

Interested in hearing more elaboration,
Cama

[Liquidess_Shade]

The questions are intresting to try and answer, because they are needed. Too many times, a belief has no writing. If this is indeed a family teaching, it would be nice to look at the belief in detail.....since he has the desire to spread the knowledge anyways.

THe titles are also an intresting thing to look at. I have found a lot of titles in any religion are very....unique. But that most of them do nothign to dictate power level in something.

So, I am wanting some explanation of this belief system. In any way, it would be nice. Thank you!

[Nochtal]

No problem! As far as linking it to historical figures. That is because of memories had by the spiritual family. Such as my younger sister is in her physical 50's right now. It is a spiritual family. As far as the titles go. The specific runic system we use, is named the Kagliph runes and I don't recall exactly off the top of my head what two words it apprieviated together, but I do know that they are two words from two different languages. As far as Tzentzrel goes, it is the surname of the family. It means Havoc in english. As far as ranking systems go. The Nine or the Nine Sages is set up exactly like the 9 witches system or 9 elders. The power of 9 concept. As far as all the other terms and refrences, I've found all the rest in other tomes, books, and articles. So those shouldn't be hard to find. As far as Merlyn being the Sage of Humans, I learned that info from an 80 year old psychic up in the northwest.

The Patron diety varies between Hecate, Diana, and Aphrodites. Mine is Hecate. We believe in a balance. In working the state of whats best for. Not a good or evil workings, but what is best for and is needed. And with how spread out we are becoming, the thought that it's needed for this system to become a little broader than a direct family link in this world. In order to continue it's passing on. It follows either the light or the dark.Day or night rather. And obviously the ones following the night do so for a reason.

Kagliph. Pretty much, just relate it to an older tradition of vampire. It is pretty much the same thing. Just a way to term it that we know they are of our family. Most of the others I have met and come to know are much older and do not use the internet. I've tried to get them to go on, but they refuse.

As far as using the kagliph dominus. It also can just be stated as Tzentzrel Dominus. or anyother way. And I have come about it by the passing down of the title. Just like in a few years, well, later in my life at least, I will pass it to my top apprentice and son figure Norock/Morgan.

Also mind you, the Nine Sages are not believed by us to be the only top dogs. Just one of the many sets of positions that have a purpose in existance. Just as there are many sets of gods and goddess, and many sets of wise ones from history. A lot of them long forgotten. As far as I'm concerned, with how few have ever been shown this system, which is very ecclectic and uses many different techniques in magic using and ritual, is close enough to being forgotten. And I do not believe in letting knowladge just go to the wayside becuase the family is dwindling. There are very few of us left. As of two years ago, I am the only one still willing to teach. the others have either decided they have taught long enough, died, or have decided not to teach in the first place.
Most of the time, we just say, o we just are a family of wizards, and it's left at that. I see this differently, as I see it as the end of our tradition and it just going to the way side.

Camazotz, the system seems to be a lot like what you mentioned, it just moves along and evolves as is needed. But it keeps everything it had taken as a reminder and building blocks.

I sorta just scrolled up and down and answered questions as I spotted them, I hope I hit them all.

[Preist]

Mine is answerd and thank you for taking the time to do that nochtal

Preist

[Camazotz]

Same here and thanks for that. Very enlightening :)

Cama

[Nochtal]

No prob. Guess This thread has served it's purpose. You are welcome.

[ChadSang]

Well, you know Noch and his posts.

[Liquidess_Shade]

I'll have to say that this was not answered to my satisfaction, but I guess int he past year I have become a cynical old person who is not up to date on what is happening in the 'real' world where all of this happens.

I guess I am just blind to it all Noch, and I am glad that you were able to share your beliefs as they are, and are in a place where a person's RELIGIOUS beliefs will NOT come under fire.

If that is how you viewed it, please do not take it as such.

[FaeInTheShadows]

As far as my system speaks of, there are 9 major races. Well, Nine Sages, or rulers of the species. 8 Races, and the ninth, the Ogre Sage. Or the Sage that is over all others that do not fit in one of the Eight. The Eight are Human, Elven, Kagliph (which vampires fall under, and derive from, so as far as elites in vampires go, it is the Kagliph that are the elite, by tech.) Salamander, Uldine, Sylph, Gnome, and Fae.

Ok just so you know Elven, Uldine, Sylph and Gnome...are all types of Fae. Fae is more of a blanket term for all these types. So this highly confuses me.

[RKCoon]

I have tyo say, this one confuckles me bad too, i really cant make sence of it. any chance of clarification here?

[RKCoon]

XDD i dont get whipped, sweety. ;)

[RKCoon]

ANY time. ;) :p

[Bella]

*hands trixi riding crop standing back watching in amusement!

[ChadSang]

If anyone wants to beat my ass with a riding crop, come one down. I'm up for that anytime. I'm addicted to pain.

[kyuuketsuki_kurai]

Ok just so you know Elven, Uldine, Sylph and Gnome...are all types of Fae. Fae is more of a blanket term for all these types. So this highly confuses me.

I think we'd talked about this on another thread, but it's not the first time I've seen Fae used as something other than a blanket term.

[Domn-al Vantor]

Salut

Everyone has their own view on what is elite. I am a Stramos Roman Vampir. SRV, or TRV (English- Traditional Romanian Vampir) Yes, I am Romanian Born In Bucuresti Romania and I have been to ever corner of this earth. I grew up in Communist Romania under Ceasescu who idolized us, and studied us and wanted to make a Master Dacian race from us (please read Dacian history for details). I have lived in England, since my Mother is British and traveled all over the world. I now reside in Connecticut and teach at a private school (boarding).

I was brough up and taught the two major types of Vampiri.

SRV ( Very Traditional, with rites, chants, festivals,ect...) with the splinter group of Pradalnic (predatory and unpredictable not to mention unsafe).

STRAIN ( outsider, foreigner ect.... needless to say it meant everyone who wasnt an SRV)

My point being that SRV's are like minded and have such a ridgid system of beliefs that most outsiders or STRAINI are thought of as inferior. Yet, modern times suggest otherwise.

Thanks for reading another point of view. I look forward to talking to many of you soon.

Ciao,
Vantor
Domn-al Vampir Metrou

[Domn-al Vantor]

I should really learn to proof read lol

Sorry for the misspellings, English is a second language to me.

La revedere,
Vantor

[ChadSang]

SRV ( Very Traditional, with rites, chants, festivals,ect...) with the splinter group of Pradalnic (predatory and unpredictable not to mention unsafe).

STRAIN ( outsider, foreigner ect.... needless to say it meant everyone who wasnt an SRV)

This is sorta like I was led along by my teacher, which I'll tell about when I start writing my story

[Eclecta]

I think we all see things differently. That's what makes us unique. Trying to explain yourself and what you beleive to someone who doesn't understand is a difficult thing. Especially when one isn't able to comprehend the terminology being used.

I admit I skimmed, because I have a lot to catch up on, but I plan to come back to this and read more thoroughly later.

[Vicereine]

Ok. I was reading through these older posts and this thread caught my eye. Ever the one who likes a good debate I decided to drag it back to the fore.

So people. All you vampires, whichever method of feeding you have to/choose to use, do you feel your 'type' is superior to anyone elses?

Personally I think ones take on politics has a highly influential sway over how you perceive yourself in relation to others. I would however like to hear from some more of you lovely people how you HONESTLY perceive yourself. Come on now, political correctness aside (within the realms of the board rules of course) tell us how it is.

After all dont i deserve to know who is better than me? ;)

Seriously though. From what i have known a high percentage of vampires have real opinions on superiority, who is and who isnt a 'true' vampire and although Im all for politeness. Lets get some debate underway on this.

Who are the vampire elite?

[MLE]

Personally I feed any way I can. I prefer blood/sex/or both, but I don't think that is best for all, or that I am better because of my feeding meathods. I generally have a distate for judging and comparing others anyway.. To each his own I say. If you can get it and it works, more power to ya!

[Vicereine]

while I agree with you MLE. I have to say that some people (vampire or not) have a deep seated belief they are better, they are just educated enough to not say it out loud.

Personally Im in the mood for a debate. so its probably just me stirring the pot ;)

[Craze]

So people. All you vampires, whichever method of feeding you have to/choose to use, do you feel your 'type' is superior to anyone elses?


Who are the vampire elite?


My "type" isn't superior. I am, though. [/joke]

[theoutsider]

I have always been of the opinion that if you think you are better than someone else, you have just proven yourself to be lesser than them.

When I was a kid, I was put into the 'gifted' catagory. This ment that I was shipped one week out of 5 from my rural school to a special 'enrichment class' in town. The bus that took me to town was the special needs bus, and it wasn't a bus, it was a station wagon. Now, the only other two kids that rode that 'bus' were Reamus, a kid with FAS, and Billy, a severly autistic kid.

You know what the most enriching part of the gifted program was? The ride to the class. I spent 40 min every day for a week learning things from Billy that were outside of anything I would have learned from a 'normal' person.

The point? People have a lot to offer, no matter what their 'status' or 'condition'. You just have to know where to look. You might not be able to figure out how to see what they have to offer, but it's most likely a deficiency in you, not the other person.

[Alyushia]

I do not believe that ANYONE is superior or inferior to anyone else.
One thing that I learned very young was that everyone has something to teach me, no matter who they are...I don't care if they are royalty or a homeless person living in a cardboard box.

[Craze]

...You guys ARE aware I was only being a smart ass, right?

[Lost]

Elitism has never sat well with me and this not just isolated to vampirism and methods of feeding, but to keep on topic although being a vampire is an integral part of who we are it is not the sum of our being, in my opinion. I have seen it in many different sites scattered around psi looking down on sangs and vice versa, I see little point to it and really don’t see much difference between doing that or targeting any other minority and for most part just see it as a way for some to feel better about themselves at the cost of others.

[Alyushia]

Sometimes people have such poor self image that they put others down as inferior in order to make themselves feel better, in my opinion.
That kind of arguing amongst ourselves (Sang vs Psy and the superiority of either) only holds us back.

[Vicereine]

ok, nice to see we have such 'healthy minded' individuals. :) Something else I was wondering is why do you guys think these others need to conceptualise themselves or their 'type' above others. Is it fear? Is it a need for some kind of heirarchy to feel rooted into something and more placement in reality? Could it be that these people are trying to create a history because they dont like the history we already have?

Just throwing some more ideas into the pot!

[RKCoon]

Craze? smart? usually? Ass? a fine one yes. ;)


Anywho. do i consider kin superior to others? no.do i con sider myself superior to other kin? no id say theres give and take. do i consider myseld superior to mundanes? id have to say yes, allthings considered. some doearn my respect, but not many.

[Alyushia]

ok, nice to see we have such 'healthy minded' individuals. :) Something else I was wondering is why do you guys think these others need to conceptualise themselves or their 'type' above others. Is it fear? Is it a need for some kind of heirarchy to feel rooted into something and more placement in reality? Could it be that these people are trying to create a history because they dont like the history we already have?

Just throwing some more ideas into the pot!

It seems to me to be a very human tendency.
Whenever groups gather there seems to be a need for those groups to compete, whether they be ethnic groups, or any other.
I do think a part of it comes from our human insecurities..a need to make ourselves feel better about ourselves by putting others down.

[Vicereine]

what also strikes me as a huge similarity with this topic to humanity generally is an innate need to belief in natural selection. It helps fuel the bigotry in people, it helps them diminish anything as 'below parr' and to fear those extraordinary as being their 'replacement'.

Eliteism seems to me to be a need for survival of the species and although i dont condone it, when viewed from an evolutionary stand point as opposed to a moral one the 'truths' of it have to be observed.

The world is dog eat dog always has been. Persecution for knowledge over the 'masses' has been and always will be a reality. Many of my posts here have advocated the judgement of people on their merits and actions, and each PERSON should do that. The need for elitism and progression doesnt stem in each PERSON, its PEOPLE that start the wars, from the pitchfork persecution to the nuclear missile.

I have to wonder whether this is even possible to overcome. I seriously doubt it as every species on the planet with fight for his survival and supremacy over its rivals and competitors. Humanity just has bigger claws.

The flip side though is without elitism or the aspiration to be better (better than what???? we must ask ourselves) progression would stagnate and there would be little room for creativity or actualising individual dreams. Im not sure I'd want to be a zombie.

I happen to think myself an open minded and accepting individual. I like to think im understanding and willing to take on board other peoples perceptions and takes on things... BUT, I think closeminded bigots are somehow 'less' than me. Doesnt that make me an eliteist to?

[theoutsider]

The greatest human strength is diversity. Humans as a whole are strong because the are each different from the others enough to supply the whole with a needed advantage. Now, that advantage may not be needed right now, and it may be a disadvantage to the person in question if it is not needed... But if it becomes needed and the person in question was not in possession of that trait, humanity would suffer.

So, it feels to me that it is inherently good to be different. But you also have to accept the differences of others. (Including "mundanes" like me, RK.) Otherwise you are being a hypocrite; accepting your personal differences from the norm as being benificial while discounting the differences of others as useless or detrimental.

[Lost]

Natural selection is a necessary step in evolution, it occurs in all species and humans would be the rare exception in that we disrupt the natural process. Personally I feel that elitism is nothing more than an ideal that is formed by the way we are raised, educated and governed by our own personal beliefs and our influences as such I believe that everyone does this in some form or another, where it becomes problematic is where there is an absence of tolerance and a surplus of egotism.

[Alyushia]

Gods I hate the term "mundanes"...isn't that just another form of elitism?
The word just seems so pejorative to me.

I do think that it is a natural tendency of people to feel that their particular beliefs and world views are a little more "right" than other's.
The thing is, do we get caught up in it (stuck in that, as it were) or catch ourselves doing it and remind ourselves that we may be wrong?

We need to try and keep open minds and get past the "black and white thinking" that is a natural tendency, in my opinion.

Tolerance...there is so little of that in the world. If there is any chance of this world surviving we need to cultivate much more of it.

[Vicereine]

sadly Alyushia I think that remembering to have tolerance is only a societal development that mankind has developed inline with 'civilisation', I think the survival of the fittest drive is inbuilt, its mammalian and its a necessary part of evolutionary evolvement. However, I think that with the development of our mental capacity, the evolving capacity of weaponry at our fingertips we have become so seperate from the aspect of humanism that its so much easier to pervay the idea of supremacy to a faceless grouping.

We, as it were, no longer have the literal blood on our hands when bigotry of anykind, in our little subsociety and society at large have and do often decieve ourselves that the crusades we fight are for 'human' rights or the rights of the species (whatever you perceive that to be). When in truth its a liars way to perpetuate myths and deceptions that fit our own perceptions of the true and just 'race/species'.

We as vampires/otherkin are vulnrable to the prejudices of not men, but MAN. Although eradicating the drive to strive for betterment and advancement would result in many good developments being unacheived. Personally I think that the wrong people have power, but its their strength we elect them by. Also I believe that this will not ever be resolved, due to the fact that we are all still mammals. Animals, and our illusions that our language capacity makes us 'better' further deceives us into false entitlement.

[theoutsider]

The problem is that we have advanced to the point where the 'laws of survival' do not apply any more.

I am just as powerful as anyone else, and many times more powerful than any other animal on the planet. How can I say this? Well, because simply put, I possess the ability to handle any animal on this planet without a problem in the struggle to survive. How? Weapons.

That one advancement moves us from the 'strongest survive' world of animals into the 'best suited to working with others survive' world of civilization. Because, point blank, the only power that one human has that another doesn't is the power that is granted to them by their peers. In other words, the power people have derives directly from the fact that they are able to get others to work with/for them.

Which means we no longer fit into the 'strongest survive' aspect. The strongest of us physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually are not the most powerful and most successful. The strongest socially are.

Now, that means that those that can adapt and mesh with the largest numbers of people will end up being the strongest in our world. Which, by extension, means that elitism is stupid because it cuts off a large portion of the people you could have otherwise convinced to be your supporters...


In the end, humans are different from other species because of the way they work together. Because of technology, each human has the ability to easily cause the death of any other human being. This makes it impossible to create a purely force-based society, as those who are pushed far enough will fight back. Our society is only successful when it does not use force, and is accepting of differneces.

[Vicereine]

whilst I would agree that we are more powerful than any other species on the planet because of our weaponry I would have to say I think you are doing the rest of the animal kingdom a slight disservice here.

Humans aren't different from other animals because we possess the ability to work together, other species work together for the betterment of the group. But because we possess language. Which has inturn speeded up the evolutionary mix and enabled science etc to develop over time.

When pushed in a corner, really pushed such as you mention, thats when the mammalian side is shown in us. The fight or flight, the instincts that I mention.

You only have to look at gang culture to see pack behaviour. You do not have to dig very deep beneath the shiny plastic veneer of our culture 'en masse' to see our animal like behaviour.

My problem is not with our animal links (being therian it sure as hell wouldnt be ;) ) My problem lies with mans ability to make humans ELITE from the rest of the animal kingdom. We are not gods we are animals. Yes we have a touch of the divine (depending on your beliefs) but we are primarily animals still.

I think the downfall of mankind will be its own perception of grandness and its own misconception of eliteism from the animal kingdom and the world in general, distance breeds contempt and easy dismissal, and ultimately a 'thats nothing to do with me' belief.

I agree that prejudice is misplaced and wrong. What Im saying is that it wont ever be truely eradicated because its part of the strongest drive we have. survival.

[theoutsider]

The point I was trying to make is that humans work together differently and with different intent than other animals. All other animals work together under the leadership of the strongest of their group. Their heirarchy is chosen and maintained by strength, and they work together by yielding to the strength of others or showing it themselves.

In humans, that is not the case. We've equalized strength with weaponry. You cannot have a pack led by the strongest (even in gangs!) because nobody is the strongest when everyone can have a gun. What we choose leaders for is something totally unique among animals; we choose based on social ability. Even in gang situations, it's not the biggest guys that are always the leaders... In some cases, it's the smallest guys that lead.

We are different from animals because we have forced ourselves (through our use of technology) to use a totally different spectrum to determine leaders. This also means that we are freed from the normal mammalian 'tribalist' response of a wolf pack rejecting the outsider. But just because we are freed from the need to display it doesn't mean we don't. And that's where Elitism comes from, IMHO.

It's an outdated, useless throwback to our less civilized, more mammalian instincts. We will eventually be rid of it because it's counter-evolutionary at this point. Especially now, when one person can hold the lives of thousands in the palm of their hand (quite literally!)

[Vicereine]

we are all certainly welcome to our opinions ;) Personally I rever my ancestry and think we could do with returning to alot of the ethos they held. So I guess we are just looking at the same issue in opposite directions.

[Lost]

There are numerous functions that we share with other species many of which can be identified among primates, in test environments it has been observed that primates have extensive language skills and ability to learn, along with creative flare and emotions. It’s not that we are all that different I believe it is more so our instincts are secondary to logic and reason.

Without our ability to learn and adapt humans would not stand much of a chance against other predators, its not just technology or weaponry its our way of thinking and awareness of capability, but its this same manner of thinking that brings the complexities into our existence, making us at times the most self destructive species on the planet, and the most deadly to others.

[Alyushia]

All one has to do is watch people for awhile to see the same dominance/submissive behavior and territory marking as in most animals.

[theoutsider]

Don't get me wrong, Vicereine. While I don't agree that the loss of the 'strongest lead' ethos is a big one, it's well within the rights of humans to choose their leaders in whatever manner they choose.

I just prefer having that choice, which is what differentiates us from our mammalian forerunners. And the fact that, with technology, everyone can reach the pinnacle of strength. These two things make me happy; the thought that any human can be my equal, if they choose, and the fact that they can choose...

As an aside, what ethos did our ancestors embody that you would like to go back to? I am just curious, as I have a desire to understand your argument and point of view better.

[Alyushia]

I think that most people have no idea why they fall are doing what they do, and spend a great deal of time avoiding awareness of it (having been taught that it just is the way things are...don't question).
The difference is that we CAN choose, but we must first be aware of our impulses and the reasons for them in order to be able to do so.
I am not sure whether I am underestimating people by thinking this, or overestimating us by thinking we can move beyond it and choose our own behavior. *chuckles*

[Vicereine]

My own personal choices is not for everyone to strive for supreame strength but to strive for balance. In all things. To work with the earth not against it. To revear there ancestors, the land and the cycles of nature. To see themselves as part of many inter linking and interchanging cycles, not owner or dominator of any. And to find peace with life and death not seek immortality in science and distance from reality. THey are my own personal beliefs.. amoungst others ;)

[Alyushia]

So many seek to dominate nature, to control the Earth. This is an illusion, as the only thing we can really control is ourselves.
I think it creates a very false sense of security, as does all dominance.

[theoutsider]

I see where our philosophies differ... As I see it, our purpose is to make the world the best possible place for intelligences to exist within. This means that we need to understand our own society as well as the world outside of it, and to understand the changing world that we have created as well as how it is created and changed.

You, as far as I can tell, see our purpose as to exist with the world outside ourselves, and to fit within the natural world that eixists outside ourselves. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

The only real difference in our viewpoints is where we need to fit. I strive to fit within the human world, to help make the human world fit better within all worlds and to make the universe a better place for sentient beings. You strive to fit within the natural world, to make the natural world one better for all beings, sentient and non.

Both are very admirable positions... And I doubt we'll change how we feel about them in the near future. :)

And this has pushed this topic waaay off topic. So I'll say that, to the natural world, Elitism might have a place, but with the human world its' a counterproductive trait.

[Alyushia]

I agree with you outsider. I do believe it is counterproductive, and we as humans need to work beyond our natural tendencies.

[Vicereine]

I also agree its counterproductive, just a kernel of it has some deeeeeeeeeeeeep rooted starting points.:) I also believe that we should embrace our intelligences and how they can best be utilised the only differing slant I have is that perhaps rather than ignore we acknowledge our roots so we can see when 'drives' are causing our actions rather than well reasoned thought.

[theoutsider]

Ahh, but does understanding those drives necessarily equate to accepting them? I understand what drives a human. I just don't think that, in the end, those base drives account for very much in the whole of human sociology... There are a large number of drives that have been subjegated for the whole of human civilization because to our mammalian ancestors they were valuable but to our civilized forerunners they were a problem...

[Vicereine]

To accept what makes you enables you to better move forward. By denying a part of who you are no matter how small you are withholding something prospectively useful to you and may delude yourself that a decision you are making is well thought out when it is being driven by a base drive. If you acknowledge and understand your drives you are better afforded to be objective in your decision making as you are more likely to recognise when its your drives and when its your intelligence doign the talking.

Just my opinion